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76 / JTBD and the Benefits of Self-Disruption

Hosted by Paul Gebel

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About Jay Haynes
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Jay Haynes
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Jay Haynes is the Founder & CEO of thrv.com, the first and only Jobs-to-be-Done (JTBD) software for product, marketing, and sales teams. As an Award-winning executive with three decades of experience, Jay’s customers include eBay, Twitter, American Express, Oracle, Target, and Viacom. He is considered a Jobs-to-be-Done innovation thought-leader. He grew thrv without any outside venture funding and continues to progress innovations in the JTBD space.

Jay Haynes, founder and CEO of thrv.com, guests on this episode of the Product Momentum Podcast. He and Paul discuss market disruption and the role Jobs-To-Be-Done plays in assessing the risks and optimizing the benefits. Jay learned all about the phenomenon of disruption from the late Clay Christensen; it’s what happens when market leaders become so focused on pleasing their most profitable customers that they overlook the needs of their other segments.

We product managers find it tempting to measure our progress based on what we want our products to do rather than on what customers want to get done. Just ask product leaders at Blackberry and Kodak. Resisting the temptation requires fortitude and takes a lot of work, Jay says. But it’s worth the investment.

“You have to change an organization’s culture that is product-focused into a culture that is customer-focused,” he adds. That’s a mental leap many are reluctant to take, as it calls for commitment to a vision and leadership to initiate and sustain the transformation. It takes time to realize that the risk of doing nothing is greater than the risk of disrupting yourself.

What type of risk analysis is required to move from the current state of your product to what it could be? Jay explains: “If it’s obvious your product could be better (and every product in the world could be better), you can then go and communicate, ‘We’ve got to avoid this risk.’”

Listen in as Jay explains how to get your organization’s self-disruption plan headed in the right direction and happening faster.


Sean [00:00:19] Hello and welcome to the Product Momentum Podcast. This is a podcast intended to entertain, educate, celebrate and give a little back to the product leadership community.

Paul [00:00:32] Well, hello and welcome to the pod. Today, we are excited to be joined by Jay Haynes, Founder and CEO of thrv.com, the first and only Jobs-to-be-Done software for product marketing and sales teams. As an award-winning executive with three decades of experience, Jay’s customers include eBay, Twitter, American Express, Oracle, Target, and Viacom. Jay is considered a Jobs-to-be-Done innovation thought leader. He grew thrv without any outside venture funding and continues to progress innovations in the Jobs-to-be-Done space. Jay, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining.

Jay [00:01:03] Thanks, Paul. Great to be here.

Paul [00:01:04] Absolutely. You know, it’s hard to talk about Jobs-to-be-Done without mentioning in the same breath Clayton Christensen and I understand you have a unique relationship with Clay. And before we jump into some more nitty-gritty questions, I’m curious, could you share a bit about your background with Clay and maybe even a bit of how you think Jobs-to-be-Done has become such a part of the vernacular in the product space?

Jay [00:01:27] Yeah, that’s a great question, and I was lucky to have to study with him in business school, so it was almost by random chance. He was teaching a lot about disruption back in the late 90s when I was studying with him, and he’d only really touched on Jobs-to-be-Done. So, of course, over the years, I was lucky enough to have studied with him and kept him as a mentor, and he really progressed his thinking too. He went from disruption, which he really became known for, but he really went on to say, “OK, well, disruption is a phenomenon that is happening, but what do you do about it as an executive, as a product, team member, et cetera?”.

Jay [00:02:04] And that’s what led to Jobs-to-be-Done. Disruption is a phenomenon. It’s not a prescriptive, “here’s how we beat disruption,” or, “here’s how we become disruptive.” He really just researched and discovered this phenomenon of companies over-serving the market and then companies with worse products would enter the market and then take over market share. That’s the phenomenon of disruption. So Jobs-to-be-Done really actually goes even farther back than Clay to Theodore Levitt. You know, in the 1960s he was famous for saying, “people don’t want a quarter-inch drill, they want a quarter hole.” And if anybody’s interested in reading more about this, his famous “Marketing Myopia” paper is really what I consider to be the kind of starting point. What I think happened was Clay really helped a whole kind of community start to formalize it because it’s great to know that your customers don’t want a quarter-inch drill, they want a hole. So how do you create a product to give them better holes, right? That’s the real question for product teams.

Paul [00:02:56] Absolutely. And as product leaders, we’re definitely thinking about that more and more in the software sense, not just drills. And I think as we’re becoming more mature, thinking about building out roadmaps and backlogs for our products, it’s easy for feature bloat to start to take over, for the highest-paid opinion in the room to start to have an outsized influence on the conversation, or even just a very technical leader or design-focused leader. And I think one of the things that starts to happen in backlogs, especially is that risk starts to creep in, not because the ideas aren’t good, but because they’re not necessarily focused. What is this prioritization risk that we’re going to jump into in a minute? I think risk is one of those sneaky words that everybody uses, but not everyone has the same intention when they say it. What is risk to you in this prioritization matrix?

Jay [00:03:48] Yeah, that’s a great question, and there’s a lot to unpack in there, what you just said. But starting with risk, risk is essentially, especially for businesses, because businesses are in the market, they exist in order to create value for their customers and their stakeholders and their shareholders, and ultimately to stay profitable and generate cash. So the risk is ultimately an investment risk. If you think about it from the CEO of the company, the risk is, “are we investing in our product roadmap, in features that are going to do something for our customers they’re willing to pay for and it’s going to generate profitability and growth?” That’s really what all risk comes down to is, is the investment worth it?

Jay [00:04:30] Now, when we work with teams, we do this a lot with them and product teams don’t necessarily consider themselves salespeople, so they don’t have quarterly revenue numbers to hit. But that’s a huge problem. Not that they need quarterly revenue, but they need an assessment of the probability that what you’re going to build in your roadmap is going to lead to growth. And let me give you a few examples.

Paul [00:04:49] Yeah.

Jay [00:04:49] BlackBerry, of course. Everybody I think remembers BlackBerry. Their market cap was larger than Apple’s before the iPhone launch. Just think about that. They were bigger than Apple, and they had a roadmap. They were investing in the BlackBerry roadmap to keep making BlackBerries better. And clearly, that was the wrong investment decision because they lost $80 billion in market cap. Now, not only did they lose $80 billion in market cap, they lost out on a trillion dollars because Apple is now a multitrillion-dollar company, opportunity.

Jay [00:05:22] So it’s not just, are you going to lose your investment, but are you capitalizing on the opportunities in the market? And that’s really how we think about risk. And the way to mitigate that is to truly understand the market. And that’s the starting point for Jobs-to-be-Done. Because companies make this mistake all the time of defining their market incorrectly. I’ll give you one other quick example. You know, Apple obviously sold an enormous number of iPods, so you had analysts at investment banks, you had equity analysts, you had companies saying, “Wow, this iPod market is huge.” They sold 200 million of them at 150 fifty bucks a pop. So that’s a $30 billion market. So even for Microsoft, that’s a huge market. So Microsoft thinking, “Hey, we’re a big company, we got lots of resources, we got marketing, distribution, branding, capital; we can connect our device to our operating system that has a billion customers, you know, hey, this Zune thing we’re going to ship into the iPod market is a really great opportunity for us.” And of course, I don’t think you owned a Zune, Paul, but occasionally we’d meet people who did. But it was a huge failure because the investment decision to invest in the iPod market was the start of that failure. There is no such thing as an iPod market. As demonstrated today, the iPod market is literally zero dollars.

Paul [00:06:36] Yeah.

Jay [00:06:37] So what happened? That’s what we try and help figure out.

Paul [00:06:40] When you put it in those terms, it is staggering to see the size and scale, and I think it can be dialed into any size product, any size market. You know, not everybody is an Apple, not everybody is a Microsoft. But as we’re thinking about our domains in whatever space we find ourselves, there’s still this idea of risk. It might not be a trillion dollars of risk, but it’s still an investment that we need to start making. And the conversations that you have with your clients as you’re walking them through the processes that you’ve designed to help flesh out a job to be done, an unmet need that can be fulfilled, is to really bring in the voice of the customer first. Make it a customer-centric process. I have some thoughts, but before I ask another question that requires too much unpacking, is there something that we can pivot to here as we’re trying to introduce this concept of Jobs-to-be-Done in risk that can help us with a prioritization framework? Prioritization is really the toughest nut to crack. The BlackBerry example and the Zune example, how do we prioritize?

Jay [00:07:40] Yeah, that’s a great question. So the simple answer is you want to focus and prioritize those things that are the biggest struggles for your customers. Because if your customers aren’t struggling with a problem, there is a very low probability they’re going to switch, you know, I mean, if you like your iPod and you’re not struggling with creating a mood with music, you’re not going to sign up for the Zune if it’s not creating some sort of value. Right? So if you were to try and unseat Apple’s dominance at the time in music, you would want to look at the job of creating mood with music and figure out, who is the segment of customers today that struggles the most with creating a mood with music? And you could identify this.

Jay [00:08:22] This is what Jobs-to-be-Done does very, very well. There’s metrics. It’s variables. There’s no like mysterious needs that your customers have. Your customers know what they’re struggling with. This is another conversation, but they know what they need to get done in their lives. You don’t have to convince them to get a job done. And if you’re trying to convince them to get a job done that they’re not doing, that’s really high risk, right? So in that market for creating a mood with music, there was clearly a huge, underserved segment that was struggling to create a mood with music and to find a new song for the mood. So how do we know this? Well, right when Zune launched, a competitor you may remember called Pandora, pioneered an entirely different platform called streaming services, which is now, of course, dominated by Spotify. But at the time when Pandora launched, they were signing up 90,000 people a day. That is success by any metric.

Paul [00:09:14] Staggering.

Jay [00:09:15] And why was that? Well, because they did something faster and more accurate than Apple, and the backend features, the algorithms were very good. If you typed in Miles Davis or Indigo Girls, it could tell what mood you were in and continue to recommend songs that were related to that mood. It was very, very good at it. So it was faster and more accurate. That is the key to all of this. And so if you’re going to prioritize your roadmap, you want to figure out, who’s that segment of customers that is struggling the most today, who is willing to pay to get the job done? That’s the key criteria for prioritizing your roadmap. Now there’s a lot to it too as well. You can categorize different customer jobs into functional, consumption, and emotion, which we can talk about. And then, of course, there’s things like bug fixes, you know, and refactoring, if you’re in software, that have to get prioritized somewhere in there as well. But your customer really should drive all that because if you don’t help your customers overcome their struggle, your competitors absolutely will. And that is the BlackBerry iPhone example.

Paul [00:10:16] Well, said. Yeah, I think the thing that stands out to me there and it reminds me of a quote from Christian Idiodi in a conversation I had with him is this concept of almost being a lazy product manager. So as a product manager, we find prioritization so hard because we end up in echo chambers with our teams and designers and engineers, and we get the bug reports from QAs and we see this list of things and we try to make sense of prioritization and we try to list them in ways that are meaningful, that can be releasable chunks of usable, valuable software. But really, the answer is that the job isn’t necessarily hard, prioritization isn’t necessarily hard, it’s that the person doing it often isn’t the right person to do it. The product manager is really just the translator. The customers know what they want. We just have to listen. And I think the thing that we want to help product leaders understand their users and their voice of the customer is that there is a way to quantify these things, but it really takes attentive listening and understanding what the struggle is first and the money will follow.

Jay [00:11:17] Yeah, absolutely. Of course, you want to listen to customers and use their language, but where voice of the customer can go wrong is just, you know, anything the customer says is right. And that can lead you off track, right? Because they would say, I want a blue widget. You build a blue widget and then they don’t buy it. Like, “what went wrong?” It’s, well, because they don’t really want a blue widget. They’re trying to explain that they want to achieve some goal and they think the blue widget will help them, right? So what you really want to do there is make sure what you’re listening for is, a job is essentially a goal they’re trying to achieve. And you want to break down that goal into all the different steps and all the different variables.

Jay [00:11:50] And what’s amazing about Jobs-to-be-Done is it shows how complex what we do in our lives is. Just, it’s almost unimaginably complex and anybody who wants to check this out, we have examples of this on our site. For example, getting to a destination on time. That’s the job we hire Apple Maps and Google Maps to do. People have been trying to get to a destination on time for forever, and that job has 16 steps and 106 different customer needs. It’s incredibly complex, so that is a knowable thing. And what’s also knowable is what people are willing to pay to get that job done.

Jay [00:12:25] So that’s a great example of where you can actually figure out what are the revenue implications of what you’re building. Because if you went to your board and your CEO and said, “Oh, we’re going to invest in competing with Apple and Google Maps, it’s a big market.” They’d say, “you’re insane because it’s a free product, no one pays for Apple and Google Maps. So how are you going to generate any revenue?” Well, it turns out there’s a very, very big segment in the U.S. that is willing to pay for a better solution to get to destinations on time. And the reason is because they can’t optimize their day. They can’t plan their stops. They’re extremely busy. They go to multiple destinations that are unknown every day, new locations. They’re like traveling salespeople. I mean, this problem’s called the traveling salesman problem, and it still exists and people are willing to pay to solve that because it’s meaningful in their lives. So you can figure out all these things, just, it does take time.

Paul [00:13:15] Yeah, that’s a great, I think, analogy for this problem that we’re trying to wrestle with. And I think those steps that you just eloquently condensed, it was really the analysis of the market, the research of the user, the segmentation, and is anybody else solving or attempting to solve this problem right now that you can iterate or disrupt? And I think that that flow really helps the product leader analyze what the opportunity is and what the opportunity cost would be of missing out.

Jay [00:13:44] Yeah, that’s absolutely right. When you’re defining the market from your customer’s job, one huge benefit is customer jobs rarely change. There are some examples of when there are new markets, but in most cases, they don’t change and you can know people’s willingness to pay to get the job done. That’s also independent of the products in the market. So if you know those two things, that’s extremely valuable because you can then estimate what the likely revenue growth you can generate. And we work with companies where a lot of times they’re in huge markets, so they don’t have a market sizing problem. But we work with companies who, the way they’ve defined the market and their customer’s job is very, very small. The reason they’re not growing at the rate they want is they’re targeting the wrong customer job. And you can always find related jobs within, you know, generally a job domain and figure out what the willingness to pay and the size of those are. And that is how you lead to accelerated revenue growth.

Paul [00:14:36] That’s, I think, really well said. I think the perfect tee-up there is to think, now, how can we take this leading-edge information and look internally and overcome some of the processes that might be affecting our organization? So this knowable market cap, this willingness to pay, the struggles are definable. But sometimes it takes a lot to convince people internally within our teams that it’s worth investing in a disruptive innovation, or it might just be worth continuing to iterate on these incremental enhancements over time. And I wonder if you can share some examples or cases where you’ve had to help coach through this problem of when you know, as BlackBerry, that it’s time to pivot? Or when do you know, as Microsoft, that it’s time to give up and not just keep iterating? What are those signs that you look for?

Jay [00:15:24] So there’s a few things, and this is extremely hard because you have to change a culture that is product-focused into a culture that is customer-focused. So there’s a few things that can help convince companies and a lot of them are historical examples. One is, you just look at companies that were once dominant leaders that failed. You know, BlackBerry is now the example. Kodak is another. You know, I’m old enough that Kodak was the Apple brand of the day. It was the consumer, you know, product example. And they thought they were in the film business. And of course, they missed out on the opportunity for sharing memories, which created another trillion-dollar company called Facebook, right.

Jay [00:16:00] And Encyclopedia Britannica, right. I mean, everybody had some sort of encyclopedia, you know, growing up. And Britannica was a very, very profitable business and obviously they completely missed the opportunity for Google and search, right? So those will help make people up that yes, even though you might be a leader, you know, nothing stays the same. Your position in the market will change. The other is we often help teams create essentially, you know, there’s lots of different phrases for it, but a red team or tiger team, a team that’s going to work on this independently of the current product team and essentially act as an internal competitor. So, you know, the reason we spend a lot of time on competition is that can be very clarifying. If you understand your customer’s job and then you say, “Well, let’s envision a new product that’s going to beat us.”

Jay [00:16:46] Even all the way back to the Macintosh, the famous stories about Steve Jobs taking his pirate group and going into a different building and kind of hiding out. It was really a startup within Apple. And they still famously do this, right. If you’re developing a new product, you know, no one else at Apple knows what you’re doing. It’s almost like you are a startup within Apple. And I always find that fascinating. People try and copy Apple’s products, very few companies try and copy their actual processes of innovation. And they’ve talked about this. Phil Schiller has talked about how they ask themselves, “What job is the Mac trying to get done? What job is the iPad trying to get done?” Et cetera.

Jay [00:17:18] So I think it is very, very hard to do. But we always find that there’s a Jobs-to-be-Done fanatic at the companies we work with, someone who’s really excited. And this is how we come at it. We’ve all worked in companies and product teams and we’ve seen this kind of frustration and, you know, inefficient processes and bureaucracies and politics. And, as you say, the HiPPO, you know, the highest-paid person’s opinion rules the day. And so they generally want to really do right by the customers. And I think that that is where we can be helpful with them and going through this process of making a transformation into a customer-focused, Jobs-to-be-Done process.

Paul [00:17:52] It’s so helpful. I think the way that you put it there about getting the concept of skunkworks built into an organization is going to help drive that disruptive innovation internally. It’s tough to get that commitment to a team, and I think one of the things that is helpful for product leaders is to almost become their own tiger team or red team, whatever you want to call it. It can be a really helpful exercise because we do get into a feature bloat mindset. We do get into, “this is the next thing on the checklist” mindset. So I don’t know if there’s any tactic that perhaps an aspiring product manager or product owner and a scrum team can take away practically from this. But have you seen any examples where maybe in a really small day-to-day take away a product leader might incorporate some of these thoughts in their day-to-day?

Jay [00:18:40] Yeah, and here’s where we’ve seen it be very successful at companies is, back to, you know, Paul, your original question about risk that one of the reasons people don’t do this is change seems risky, right? That’s the equation we have in our head. Like, “we’re selling film now at Kodak, we’ll just keep doing that, that’s less risky because we got to hit our quarterly numbers.” When actually the risk was not understanding what was really happening with customers, right? So one way that teams can do this is if you start to analyze your roadmap through the lens of your customer, even if you don’t have a formal roadmap, just ideas that your company has, or even just your existing features today, you can always set a benchmark and say, “Is this getting the job done fast and accurately enough?” Because we use speed and accuracy as those crucial metrics.

Jay [00:19:25] And if the question then reveals, “Wow, this takes minutes,” or in some industries we work with, it takes days or weeks to get the job done. And your customers want to get the job done instantaneously, right? They want a Pandora, they want to push a button, create a mood. So if you start to do that type of analysis, then when you say, “Well, here’s our new ideas,” that seem risky because they would be the, you know, tiger team or red team like new innovations, it starts to appear much, much less risky to pursue something that’s going to create more customer value than what you’re doing today.

Jay [00:19:58] So a way to get this transformation headed in the right direction and happening faster is to do that type of risk analysis of the current state of your product today and what it could be. And if it’s obvious that your product could be better, and every product in the world could be better, you can then go and communicate, “We’ve got to avoid this risk.” I’ll give you one other quick example. We’ve worked with a lot of companies where they literally set out the metrics that their product and engineering teams are judged on by how often and how long their customers use the product. Right. If you look at the market, the underlying thing that the customers are hiring the product to do, they don’t want to stay there, but they’re being interrupted in what they’re doing, often because there’s an advertising model behind it. I mean, obviously, Facebook is the biggest example of this. Facebook is being hired for a lot of reasons, but what they want is you get addicted to the dopamine spikes of Facebook so they can sell more ads. A whole other conversation about whether or not that’s good for society.

Paul [00:20:59] Not going to take that bait.

Jay [00:21:00] Yeah, that’s a that’s a different podcast. But in general, that really is a risk because your customers don’t want to hang around and see more ads. Now, ads can be good if they’re targeted. You know, you’re in the market for a vacation or a, you know, musical instrument. You know, if I see ads about those things it’s good. But if you’re not, it’s a total waste of your time. So again, risk assessment and risk mitigation can help drive those types of changes.

Paul [00:21:25] Yeah, that paradox is key. The two things that I took away from what you just said is we measure things based on what we want our products to do, often at the expense of what our customers want to get done. And I think the other thing that I heard there is that it’s tough to build this disruptive mindset because, like the Kodak or the frog in a slowly boiling pot of water, you’re going to, over time, experience an outsized risk based on the do-nothing approach. Doing nothing and watching the 0.05 percent stock price increase year over year will eventually become a greater risk than disrupting yourself. Is that?

Jay [00:22:03] That’s exactly right. And, you know, just as a product team member, everybody wants to be on a team that’s successful. You know, when I worked at Microsoft if you launched a product, you got this plaque from Bill Gates like saying, you know, “Paul, great job, congrats on launching, you know, Windows 98 or whatever.” I’m old. That was a long time ago. Because you want to be part of that successful team. So you want to imagine that what you’re working on is going to be the iPhone as opposed to the BlackBerry. And this type of analysis, which, by the way, is not easy to, you know, it takes real thinking. You know, product team members are generally pretty smart. It’s not as easy as, “Oh, I just came up with this idea, we should launch an iPhone,” you know, even the iPhone, even Steve Jobs wasn’t like that. If you go back and read what actually happened, it wasn’t like, you know, “I had this idea in the shower and now I’m a billionaire.” You know, that’s not the way the world works. So it does take work, but it is worth the effort because it’s lowering your risk and increasing your chances of success.

Paul [00:22:58] Absolutely. Got one or two more questions for you but before I get to them and close out, I wanted to turn it over to you and just ask, you know what has been inspiring you lately? What is on your radar? Perhaps what are you working on for the new year as we record this at the close of 2021 that you want to share with our listeners?

Jay [00:23:15] Well, one of the things that’s nice about what we do is we get to see a huge number of markets, from consumer markets to business markets to medical markets, and there is an enormous amount of opportunity to improve people’s lives. It really is. We’re not the end of innovation, right? We are just at the beginning, which is very, very exciting to us. So the other element of it that we’re excited about internally at thrv is Jobs-to-be-Done is a process. It requires training, it requires research, it requires analysis. It doesn’t happen overnight. So one of the things I’m very excited about is that we’re using Jobs-to-be-Done to build thrv. We’re building thrv on thrv, not surprising.

Paul [00:23:52] Very meta.

Jay [00:23:53] Yeah. And so we’re launching, very soon in the next quarter, some tools to our platform that are going to make this stuff go much faster for product teams because we judge ourselves by speed and accuracy.

Paul [00:24:07] Well, I’m very excited for you. One of the two questions that we ask all of our guests is what is the definition of innovation? But I cheated. I already heard you share that recently, and what you said was innovation is creating something that somebody will pay for or use. Is that still a definition that you’d stand by or would you expand?

Jay [00:24:23] I would expand a little bit on that and also say that it’s something that really does make people’s lives better, meaning it helps them achieve some goal, whether they’re a parent, whether they’re planning for retirement, whether they’re a CFO trying to optimize cash flow, whether they’re a cardiovascular surgeon or a patient. If you think about the world today, people are busy and stressed out. We’re just in this, you know, advanced industrial age where, you know, two parents are working. Everybody’s got careers they’ve got to manage and kids and families and parents they’ve got to take care of. You know, just life is complex. So if you really can innovate, your product is going to help those people get their jobs done better and if they’re willing to pay for that, you’re going to be on a path to success. And that’s, I think, why we do this every day.

Paul [00:25:08] Just hearing you define it that way as you were going through kids and jobs and careers, I was going, “check, check, check” down the list.

Jay [00:25:14] Yeah. Right.

Paul [00:25:15] So that’s great, I appreciate that context and the humanity that you bring to the conversation. Last question for you. We would love to share a book recommendation. You’ve already mentioned a ton of great thinkers and writers. Do you think there’s a stand-out book that every product manager should have on their desk?

Jay [00:25:32] Yes. Let me recommend two. The first one is obvious, it’s Clay Christensen’s Competing Against Luck, which is great. It’s a wonderful look at Jobs-to-be-Done. It’s pretty high level, but, you know, still just a wonderful book. The second book is a book by a neuroscientist called Lisa Feldman Barrett, and her work is just fantastic, and the book is called How Emotions Are Made. And the reason this, I think, is so important for product managers is ultimately voice of the customer is about empathy. You really want to empathize with whoever your customer is, whether it’s a parent, a CFO or surgeon, whoever, you want to empathize with their struggles. And of course there’s the functional job aspect of it. You know, cardiovascular surgeon’s trying to restore artery blood flow. You know, a CFO is trying to optimize cash flow. Those things are very, very functional. But we, as humans, are also incredibly emotional and those emotions are an incredibly important part of our lives. Not just, you know, loving your kids, but how we experience the emotions in our careers and what we do that matters to us, and how are those emotions made? It’s such an interesting question and this is, I think, the next level of the Jobs-to-be-Done innovation process is figuring out emotions. And the neuroscience behind this is just amazing. And so I would really recommend How Emotions Are Made by Lisa Feldman Barrett.

Paul [00:26:49] I can’t think of a better note to close on. Great recommendation and totally agree. Thanks so much for taking the time to spend with us today and share some of your insights and experiences. It’s been a blast.

Jay [00:26:58] Paul, thanks for having me.

Paul [00:26:59] Cheers.

Paul [00:27:03] Well, that’s it for today. In line with our goals of transparency and listening, we really want to hear from you. Sean and I are committed to reading every piece of feedback that we get, so please leave a comment or a rating wherever you’re listening to this podcast. Not only does it help us continue to improve, but it also helps the show climb up the rankings so that we can help other listeners move, touch, and inspire the world just like you’re doing. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next episode.