In this episode of Product Momentum, we share our conversation with Matt LeMay, who had just delivered a keynote at INDUSTRY Global, entitled The Business is Your Business.

About Matt LeMay

Matt LeMay is an internationally recognized product leader, consultant, and author. His titles include Agile for Everybody, Product Management in Practice, and the soon-to-be-released Impact-First Product Teams. Today’s episode marks Matt’s second visit with Product Momentum; his first was in episode 113, Embracing Human Complexity in Product Management (June 2023).

High-Impact Work Is Hard…

For product managers and their teams, Matt explains, doing the high-impact work is super-hard. When dealing with the things that lie at the core of the product, he adds, “you have to coordinate; you have to have the tough conversations. Sometimes, you need to redo, or completely undo, work that’s been done by another team. That often draws lots of attention from people in the organization that product teams rarely hear from.”

…But Low-Impact Work Can Be Dangerous

It’s almost always easier to do the low-impact work, Matt says. Add a feature here, a new button there. It’s the sort of work that helps us feel good about ourselves, like we’re making progress. But the buzz is usually short-lived. Eventually, the absence of high-impact output catches up with product teams – usually, Matt adds, after the CFO takes a closer look at a spreadsheet.

Danger lurks when there’s a disconnect between company goals and product team goals, Matt explains. “When teams don’t know how their work is affecting the commercial realities of the business, they tend to reprioritize efforts to low-impact work.”

Product Teams Can Control Their Situation

Regardless of who’s responsible for the disconnect, product managers and teams can take control of the situation to give themselves a fighting chance.

“Even if no one’s asking us to, we can take ownership by saying, ‘here’s why and how the work we’re doing is going to help the business achieve those goals,’” Matt advises. “If we can proactively take control of that conversation, we put ourselves in a much stronger position with company leadership. On the other hand, if all we do is walk in and say, ‘tell us what success looks like,’ we might not get the answer we’re looking for.”

During our conversation with Matt, he mentions two important books on product management, respectively authored by earlier guests of Product Momentum: Evidence Guided, by Itamar Gilad, and Radical Focus, by Christina Wodtke. Be sure to catch our conversations with Itamar and Christina:

Episode 143, ‘Useful Models’ That Boost Product Launch Success, with Itamar Gilad.

Episode 18, Simple Steps To Achieve High Performance, with Christina Wodtke.

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Sean Murray [00:00:19] Hey, everyone. I’m Sean Murray.

Sean Flaherty [00:00:20] And I’m Sean Flaherty.

Sean Murray [00:00:21] Welcome back to Product Momentum, a community of product people and a marketplace of ideas where leaders and learners come together to shape our way ahead.

Sean Flaherty [00:00:28] Our production team is the best in the industry, and we are dedicated to producing high-quality content from thought leaders across the product development space.

Sean Murray [00:00:36] Check us out on your favorite listening platform or if you prefer the video experience, you can find all our latest episodes on the Product Momentum YouTube channel.

Sean Flaherty [00:00:44] Let’s get after it.

Sean Flaherty [00:00:47] Sean what a great episode.

Sean Murray [00:00:49] That was awesome. Matt’s the best. I just want to hang out with Matt. I know I don’t need to do the work thing with Matt. I would just like to hang out with him.

Sean Flaherty [00:00:56] The best dresser at INDUSTRY, for sure.

Sean Murray [00:00:58] Best shoes in the game. Best shoes in the game.

Sean Flaherty [00:01:00] Now, we had a great conversation about prioritization, making sure that we’re working on high impact work, not low impact work. Why low impact work begets low impact work.

Sean Murray [00:01:09] Yeah. Connecting your actionable plans to your company goals.

Sean Flaherty [00:01:13] What a great episode. Let’s get after it.

Sean Murray [00:01:15] Let’s do it.

Sean Murray [00:01:19] Matt LeMay is an internationally recognized expert on product management and agile ways of working. He’s the author of Agile for Everybody and Product Management in Practice and has helped build and scale product management practices at companies ranging from early-stage startups to Fortune 500 enterprises. Matt also authored the soon to be released Impact-First Product Teams. In his keynote, The Business is Your Business, Matt dove into the challenges that overwhelm today’s product managers. This is also Matt’s second time with us at Product Momentum. He was our guest on episode 113.

Matt LeMay [00:01:49] Indeed I was.

Sean Murray [00:01:50] So, Matt, welcome back and congratulations for rocking the house this morning.

Matt LeMay [00:01:53] Thanks so much. So happy to be here.

Sean Murray [00:01:54] Yeah, great. I was really happy to hear you talk about connecting day-to-day product teamwork with impact, it’s something that’s been very important to me in the last couple of months of my working career. So, what caused you to lock in on that topic?

Matt LeMay [00:02:09] I mean, long story short, like a lot of product teams are in a very tenuous position right now. We are subject to the commercial realities of their business, and they don’t know how their work is affecting the commercial realities of their business, which is dangerous. Like it’s just not positioned to one where it’s like, well, yeah, my team is doing this work, we’re doing all these things, we’re prioritizing or researching or discovering. But at the end of the day, we don’t know why the business needs us. That’s just not a position I would want to find myself in.

Sean Flaherty [00:02:51] I loved your assertion and your model around low impact work.  I love to have this conversation so the audience could get the benefit of that: like your work, the cycle, the vortex, so to speak.

Matt LeMay [00:02:54] The low impact death spiral. So long story short, we have teams do low impact work because it’s easy. It’s easy to pick off a little feature we can add here, a little improvement we can make here that doesn’t really affect the commercial core of the business too much, because when we seek to affect the commercial core of the business, people have a lot of opinions. That makes the product more complicated. We will end up with more fiddly little bits of disconnected features. That makes it much harder to coordinate and do those things that actually affect the commercial core of the business, which in turn drives product teams to more low impact work. Around and around and around it goes until more layoffs.

Sean Flaherty [00:03:36] Why do you think that happens? So why do you think they pick the low impact work?

Matt LeMay [00:03:42] High impact work is really hard to do. And usually invites a lot of scrutiny. Like I’ve worked with a lot of teams where once they start speaking the language of business impacts, once they start talking about revenue and growth, suddenly like a wild CFO appears and is like, I have opinions about this, and they’re like, I don’t want to talk to this person. Yeah, it’s easier…in pretty much every appreciable way to do low impact work. Like doing things that affect the core of a product. It’s hard. You have to coordinate. You have to have really difficult conversations. You sometimes have to redo, undo things that other teams have done or things that your own team has done. That’s really difficult and it’s just easier nine out of ten times to do the low impact work.

Sean Murray [00:04:29] You talked about connecting company goals to team goals and how you really want team goals to be one step away from company goals. Why is that? Why do you need them to be so tight?

Matt LeMay [00:04:38] Yeah. So, I mean, again, the idea for that comes from Christina Wodtke’s book, Radical Focus, which is one of my favorite business books ever. And I think it’s important because that way, for starters, your teams know why their work is important to the business, right? You don’t have to look at a slide deck or be in a meeting or have these conversations. It’s really easy to keep on top of mind when it’s just one step away. It’s also so important for cross team collaboration. You know, the example I use in the book is imagine you have two teams, as you often do, whose success is measured by the adoption of their respective features. That is a zero-sum game, right? You’re pushing those features into the core experience. The more people use my feature, the better. I don’t care if people use your feature.

Sean Flaherty [00:05:19] We’re competing with each other.

Matt LeMay [00:05:21] Whereas if my team is trying to solve a particular problem for particular users, it has a particular amount of revenue on it. Your team is trying to solve a particular problem for a particular user that has a particular amount of revenue on it. We can look at that and if we wind up in the same area, well, what’s the best approach? What’s going to actually maximize the value of the business? Is it possible that your feature should only be surfaced to certain users? Is it possible that my feature shouldn’t be a feature at all to take it into the [unintelligible] work? These are conversations we can have when we are able to have that kind of an apples-to-apples comparison at the level of business goals. But if we can’t do that, then it’s really hard for teams to coordinate with each other around anything other than frustrating tactical dependencies.

Sean Flaherty [00:06:02] Yeah, I’m fascinated by this concept of people kind of regressing to the low impact work. Because this is definitely a pattern I’ve seen over the last 30 years of building products in my own world. That they want to take on the easy wins, the things they can celebrate, the things that make them almost feel good. Like, hey, we got something done.  Even though it’s not the thing that maybe it’s the best thing to get done for the users or for the business. And I’m so fascinated with why that happens. Like, I think there’s a core innate human need around being competent, being good at your job, which I think draws us into that problem.

Matt LeMay [00:06:42] Yeah, that’s a really good point. I mean, I think it’s also a challenge of like. When companies don’t have specific impact level goals with a timeframe that’s really easy to get into the kind of the happy to establish like, well, we need to ship something, right? We need to do something. And if we’re trying to just dot, dot, dot some revenue at some point, then we can get caught in the spiral of not shipping anything ever. If we have the pressure of needing to do impact by a certain time, we need to do riskier things like we need to ship things that actually matter and we need to ship them frequently because if we’re not shipping them, we’re not going to have an impact this quarter. You know, I think one of the challenges I see a lot of companies get into is that there’s sort of this sense that the only things that are high impact are things that take nine months or take a year or are impossible to do. So, we have to do these little quick wins if we want to be a team that ships regularly. And I don’t think that’s true. But I think that unless you have actual time-bound, specific targets, it’s very hard to create kind of pressure that teams need to ship impactful things with enough frequency to deliver against specific targets of time.

Sean Murray [00:07:42] I think there’s an appetite right now on product teams to operate that way, where they can connect, where they can connect their work, their actionable plans to these higher-level goals. But right now, I don’t think that the communication of the higher-level goals is always coming from the top down the way that we need it. So how do we promote that idea internally? You know, if our listeners are working somewhere right now, and was like, that sounds great, but I don’t have those high-level goals to work with. How do we get that from our leadership?

Matt LeMay [00:08:09] That’s a great question. And I think part of what makes this a difficult conversation is that as we saw with Spotify, sometimes it is the individual teams who suffer the consequences of doing the low-impact work, not the leaders who gave the teams those goals or don’t give the teams those goals. Right. I think part of what’s so challenging is that as a product team, we might say we don’t know what success looks like. Nobody told us. But again, if our CFO is looking at that spreadsheet and saying, why do we need to pay all these expensive product people? And there’s no good answer. We bear the consequences of that, even if we feel it wasn’t our responsibility. So, I think if you can understand the existential realities of the business, you know, what’s that next big milestone: is that a fund raise, is it a quarterly earnings report, what does the business need to be successful? And then we can take ownership of saying even if nobody’s asking us to, here’s why and how the work we’re doing is going to build into that and help the business achieve those goals. If we can proactively take control of that conversation, we are in a much stronger position and we can go to leadership and say, Hey, does this make sense? Is this enough? Is this going in the right direction? But if we just go and say, tell us what success looks like, we might not get the answer we’re looking for.

Sean Murray [00:09:20] Yeah, I think that ties into something that Sean talks about a lot as motivation. And autonomy. Or as we spoke about, you know, if I can do some of this on my own, if I can make some progress on my own or make suggestions on our own, you know, I’m more motivated because I feel more valued.

Sean Flaherty [00:09:33] You played a role in what I’m doing. Like, I think it’s important for teams to play a role in the setting of their goals, you know? To understand them well.

Matt LeMay [00:09:41] And I work with some teams who are given goals and then set their own goals anyhow. They all go do this and they’re saying, yes, we’re going to do this because this. Who, even if they’re given those lower-level goals, again, they take ownership of making connections. And here’s why this is important. And does it invite more scrutiny from senior stakeholders? Usually, yes.

Sean Flaherty [00:10:00] But are you better off a good thing, though? Yeah. Well, if you’re the thing if you’re causing that kind of pressure.

Matt LeMay [00:10:04] I think that’s a good I think it is a good thing. And again, I think you’re better off having those conversations play out while you are in the room than coming up behind closed doors when you’re not in the room.

Sean Flaherty [00:10:13] Yeah, I call that Puffer fishing.  We’re like acting like a puffer fish or blown up and kind of not dealing with candor. Yeah, we’re kind of doing our own thing over here and maybe fully aligned with the broader, the bigger ship, you know?

Matt LeMay [00:10:26] Right. Which, again, can be great for a time, but it’s going to bite you eventually. It’s going to bite you eventually.

Sean Murray [00:10:32] You do great graphic on the stage. You talked about like the tension between maybe, like misaligned team goals.  What’s like an easy way to identify when maybe you’ve got tension between disparate team goals?

Matt LeMay [00:10:45] Well, again, I think the first step is having team goals that are one step away from company goals, because if you don’t have that, you’ll never see the tension. Okay. So again, when you have teams that are doing like ten level goal cascades, like you’re comparing apples to like Corvettes, like you’re just in different like different taxonomies of objects.

Sean Flaherty [00:11:01] They’re both red.

Matt LeMay [00:11:01] They’re both red. There you go. You just did it. But I think that when you have those kinds of apples-to-apples comparisons, you can see that tension and you can get out ahead of it. But the tension is not bad. I still think one of the weirdest things about the last ten years of product development is this idea that each team should have goals that are perfectly aligned with each other and have no overlap and tension. Like that doesn’t make any sense.  You’re going to have some overlap. You’re going to have some tension. That’s a good thing. And if you can look at that tension proactively and say like, wow, okay, what they’re doing might not help us. We need to talk about this. Or what they’re doing is really similar to what we’re doing. Maybe we should combine our efforts.  And if you can’t see it, you can’t talk about it. So, I think, again, that tension is not a bad thing. If you can get out ahead of it, see it, and manage it.

Sean Murray [00:11:49] You reference Christina Wodtke before and actually in her blog post at The Art of the OKR, she says that the best objectives are ones that teams can achieve on their own. Right. But in reality, that’s not always the way that it can work. We’re always going to have those overlapping goals. There’s going to be, there has to be some overlap as such, if we’re all working towards if we’re one step away from the company.

Sean Flaherty [00:12:14] You open your talk by saying basically there are no correct models. Yeah. Like, the reality is we’re building things that don’t exist. Yeah. Right. So, we’re creating the future. And by creating the future, you know, there’s no manual for that. So, like, we’re, we’re all learning frameworks, and we use frameworks to kind of make sense of the world. Like, you need a map. Make sense of the world. But you just have to understand the maps almost always wrong. Our industries are unique. Our talent pool is unique to the market that we’re in is unique, and we got to figure it out.

Matt LeMay [00:12:47] Again, the thing that kills me is when I work with product managers and teams who will come to me like really upset because, you know, again, someone told me to build something for one customer and that’s not how we’re supposed to do things. And I’m like, if that one customer accounts for half of your revenue, maybe you have to think about it differently…

Sean Flaherty [00:13:02] Then maybe that’s the impact you’re looking for.

Matt LeMay [00:13:04] Again, like there are you know, I think it’s worth noting more than we do that most of these best practices come from companies with very unique commercial circumstances. Like I’ve worked with startups who are doing the Amazon press release. Which I really like. Yeah. And also, if you start within no customers. Yeah. Then it can kind of contribute to this delusion of like getting the great stuff. People are going to say, You’re 100% guessing. Yeah. And it’s like you don’t have any customers. It’s like, we don’t have it. Like we don’t have a press that’s going to care about what we’re doing. So again, I think it’s really worth noting that the realities of this work, as you said, like are not going to necessarily look like these well-understood case studies or these best practices. And that’s okay. It doesn’t mean we’re doing things wrong. It doesn’t mean we’re not product led. It doesn’t mean that we’re not the best product organizations. It just means we are figuring it out to build a successful business, which is what our job is, really.

Sean Murray [00:13:56] I cheated before. I asked Matt this question before we actually started recording. But I was wondering if, you know, this kind of concept of bringing us back to what’s our impact, how are we generating revenue for the business? You know, like you say, the business is our business. Is this a shift in thinking? Is this, are we boomeranging back from, you know, just focus on users and their problems?

Matt LeMay [00:14:20] I’ll answer the question differently this time. So, when I was working with a company a couple of years ago, I was working with a really phenomenal engineering leader who went to the CEO of the company and said, I’m nervous because I don’t hear engineers talking about the business. The CEO of the company said, wait a second, I have product leaders coming to me every day saying we’re too business-centric and customer-centric enough. Now I have an engineering leader coming to me saying we don’t have engineers talking about the business enough, and what the heck is going on. And this engineering leader thought about it for a second. And she said, I think I understand the confusion here. When people say we’re business-centric, they mean we’re focused on opinions, on politics, on the personalities of the leadership of the business. The business model is intrinsically customer-centric because the business model is how we exchange value with the customers. Like if we set our goals high level enough things like revenue, things like user growth, we need to understand our users, we need to prioritize the things that actually matter to them because otherwise they’re not going to give us money.

Sean Flaherty [00:15:17] Yeah, I think I think it’s, you know, it’s not an either or. So. We’re focused or your engineers focus your business, but you have to be all for that. You have to figure out what the dominant, so there is a dominance hierarchy between those. And, you know, the customer really has to come first at some point because we’re the source of all your economic rent. That’s the way business works.

Matt LeMay [00:15:35] I think that’s exactly right. They need to come first because they are they are like the business, like they’re paying for stuff or, you know, exchanging or they’re the attention that we monetize through advertising or whatever it is. Like people other than ourselves need to do stuff. So, one of the questions I ask in the book is like, who needs to do what for us to achieve our impact, and why would they do it? And that’s really like, I like that question because it’s a way of reframing some of this user centric discovery stuff around the business. But who needs to do what? Why would they do it? And if we can answer that, then we’re going to have to figure out what matters to our customers.

Sean Flaherty [00:16:10] Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. Another thing you said in your talk was about low-impact work begets low-impact work. And that, you know, sparked a tremendous amount of curiosity. So, I wanted to I want you to tell that. So, expand on that a little bit. So, is that why do you think that is?

Matt LeMay [00:16:28] I think it’s in part because, as you said, low-impact work often gets celebrated. You know, you see a team, we shipped a thing, and they celebrate that, and other teams go, well, we want to be celebrated. We want to ship a thing. And what’s the easiest thing to ship? Probably not a high impact. So how you celebrate and incentivize product work is, I think, a big part of that. Also, again, the more low-impact fiddly stuff is in an app or a product, the harder it is to get to the commercial heart of that. So, I think via a combination of the way that things are incentivized and celebrated and just the reality of it getting harder and harder to do, the complex coordination to ship high impact work, the more low-impact stuff gets shipped. The more implicit and explicit incentive there is to continue delivering.

Sean Flaherty [00:17:10] I love that. Brilliant insight. One more thing. I really. I really want to dig into. You destroyed ice. Like you put ice up there, and you’re, let’s talk about a prioritization scheme. And I’m totally on board with this, though. I believe that objective prioritization is actually impossible. It’s impossible as we’re building things that don’t exist. We don’t know what the future holds. We don’t really know how our customers will respond until we put it out there. Yeah. Even impact like we’re trying.

Matt LeMay  We’re guessing around it, and we don’t do. We’re guessing the best we can. What’s the plausible best-case scenario?

Sean Flaherty  So, you just destroyed it? Well, I love that.

Matt LeMay [00:17:48] Well, it’s funny because I actually find ice really useful sometimes, so I’m going to try to redeem that which I have destroyed. But I think the challenge is unless you have specific impact level goals. You can’t impact doesn’t mean you can’t prioritize at all unless you have a specific number. We need this many users [unintelligible cross talk] How are you going to do impact?  I think all of Itamar Gilad’s work, the confidence meter he has I think is a really great tool. It’s also really shady in a way that I like where it’s like a deck is worth like 0.00008 of confidence where it’s basically like that presentation you made is worthless because we didn’t validate with customers, which I really appreciate. I think that for one of the things I say in the book is that an impact first product team understands the cost of itself to the business. So, when we talk about effort, it’s not just like it’s a three or a T-shirt size, but it’s like this team cost $20,000 a week to operate. So, if we have to design real costs for three weeks, that’s $60,000. If the impact is going to be $20,000, then like, why the heck are we even talking about this? Yeah. So, I think the sooner we can get these things to a place where they are not like abstract, you know, things, but actually talking about like what is the impact in terms of the business, what is the effort and cost to the business.  Then we’re in a better position to actually prioritize in a more thoughtful way.

Sean Murray [00:19:08] We know we want to be you know, we want to be we want to, you know, we want our team goals to be one step away from company goals. Yeah. What are some of the keys to like creating great team goals? What are best practices for creating more team goals?

Matt LeMay [00:19:21] I only have a very vibes-oriented answer.

Sean Murray [00:19:25] Like we we’re big on vibes here, so that’s good.

Matt LeMay [00:19:27] When you’re still really nervous, I think that’s when you should stop. I think that in a lot of cases, teams’ kind of get into this cascade and control dynamic because they look at it and they go, Well, we can’t assure that, you know, revenue we have to like, that’s out of our control, growth that’s out of our control. And the impact is the instinct rather than just here is well, let’s cascade it down until it’s like ship this thing, deliver this thing and have this meeting and we can control that. If you’re not nervous, you’ve probably cascaded too many levels down. The very same emotional triggers that compel teams to continue cascading are usually the reason they should stop. And that’s really hard for people. Like it’s really challenging to look at this and say the success of our team is outside of our immediate control. But again, the reality is that the success of your business is outside of your immediate control, like you can’t just say, you know, it’s funny because I think there was a time in the 2000s, 2010s, when it was like, all we need to do is acquire a ton of users no matter how much it costs, and then we’ll have a successful business. So, you know, we can build a D2C business, DTC thing and like the cost of acquisition is ten bucks, sell a mattress with five bucks profit, and then eventually we’ll figure it out. And that hasn’t always gone well.

Sean Murray [00:20:38] So we’re looking for that 50-50 shot at, you know, we’re mildly confident that we can that we can pull this off.

Matt LeMay [00:20:46] Well, I think we’re looking for a situation where we can say like, this makes sense, this is sustainable. This is like we are learning enough to build a business that has some sustainability, that actually has some chance of making it beyond just, grow, grow, grow, and then figure out the business model later. I think the era of venture capital is basically free, grow, grow, grow and to figure out the business model later. I don’t think we’re there anymore. And I think that’s a good thing.

Sean Flaherty [00:21:12] It’s a tired way of looking at it doesn’t work as well.

Matt LeMay [00:21:15] I mean, I got hey, that paid for my life for several years. So, like thanks past venture capitalists for funding businesses that didn’t necessarily have a thoughtful business model. That’s funny.

Sean Flaherty [00:21:27] One more thing I captured from your talk. You said every time you abstract something out, you add risk. Talk about that.

Matt LeMay [00:21:34] Gosh. So, you know, again, we are supposed to have these neat and tidy cascades where we go from business impact to strategy to objectives, to bets, to discovery, to problem scoping. And then we deliver the work. But as anyone who has ever been through the process of selling these things knows the more layers of abstraction we have, the more likely it is that we have nothing to do with them. We have just abstracted stuff out to the point where we can achieve all of those lower-level goals. We can do all of those things, but they don’t actually add up.

Sean Flaherty [00:22:06] They’re not connecting to impact.

Matt LeMay [00:22:08] Right. But it would be great if we could just trace it back so than we do. We write the story that delivers the epic, that meets the scope, that solves the problem, that meets the objective, that solves the bit, that delivers the impact for the business. But like, that’s not how it works, right? Each of those steps makes things riskier and increases the risk that teams will deliver work that doesn’t add back up to that impact. So, what I’m saying is quite simply, when we get to the point of doing work, we should just ask the question, does this still add up.

Sean Flaherty [00:22:36] One step away from the impact?  That’s the reason behind that mantra. I love it. It’s great.

Matt LeMay [00:22:42] It’s yeah. I mean, I’ve certainly been there where I’m like, I’ve wasted so much of my career finessing the middle.  Being like, if we can get the strategy perfectly right, then like. But the strategies change. Like, things change, right? Every time we commit to a user persona, we commit to prioritizing this group over that group or this metric over that metric. If the market changes, our assumptions might be totally wrong. And we can spend all day going back and saying like, all right, what in the middle needs to change? But we don’t always have that luxury. We sometimes need to just go back and say, like, this isn’t going to do what’s going to do well.

Sean Flaherty  [00:23:17] It’s been an awesome conversation, it’s great to meet finally in person. So last time was just coming out of Covid, right?

Matt LeMay [00:23:26] Yeah.

Sean Murray [00:23:27] I know you’ve got your book coming up. Impact-First Product Teams. What are you reading right now? What’s on your shelf?

Matt LeMay [00:23:34] Gosh. I am not reading…

Sean Murray [00:23:39] Honesty is the best answer.

Matt LeMay [00:23:41] Feng Shui Modern by a guy called Cliff Tan about how to how to bring the principles of feng shui into a modern living space. Because I’m about to move and I want my apartment to feel nice.

Sean Murray [00:23:53] Nice.

Matt LeMay [00:23:53] So that’s what I’m reading now.

Sean Flaherty [00:23:55] And we asked you a while back how you define innovation. Is that changed? How do you define innovation?

Matt LeMay [00:24:00] Well, I don’t even remember what I said.

Sean Flaherty [00:24:02] Should be interesting to compare them.

Matt LeMay [00:24:05] I mean, I would define innovation now as something which unlocks previously unlocked value exchange potential. Like something where there is a potential for an exchange of value that has been untapped. Innovation is tapping into that in a way that’s going on.

Sean Flaherty [00:24:19] I love that. Tapping into unlock potential. Beautiful. Okay. Well, thanks for joining us, Matt. This has been a fantastic conversation, as always.

Matt LeMay [00:24:29] Yeah. Thanks so much.

Sean Murray [00:24:30] Thanks, Matt.

Paul Gebel [00:24:34] Well, that’s it for today. In line with our goals of transparency and listening, we really want to hear from you. Sean and I are committed to reading every piece of feedback that we get, so please leave a comment or rating wherever you’re listening to this podcast. Not only does it help us continue to improve, but it also helps to show climb up the rankings so that we can help other listeners move, touch and inspire the world, just like you’re doing. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next episode.