Nesrine Changuel is a product coach, advisor, and speaker with more than a decade of senior-level product experience at Google, Spotify, and Microsoft. Soon she will add “author” to her long list of accomplishments with the publication of Product Delight: How to Make Your Product Stand Out with Emotional Connection (September 23, 2025).

In this episode of Product Momentum, Nesrine guides us through her Product Delight Model. In the process, she reminds us that while strong functionality creates an initial sense of trust and reliability, it is our products’ thoughtful human touches that extend beyond trust to build a strong emotional connection.

Here’s what else we learned:

Delight Combines Function and Emotion

To Nesrine, building delightful product means creating technical solutions that address a user’s functional and emotional needs. Product managers are well accustomed to building products that solve a functional problem, she says. But that’s usually not enough.

“What I’m advocating for is making sure that your tech product is of course functioning well,” Nesrine adds, “that it’s solving for functional needs. But we must also try to include users’ emotional needs into your solutions.” This combination of needs fulfillment makes an emotional connection that secures the bond between product and user.

The Three Pillars of Delight

To achieve product delight, our products must solve existing user challenges, exceed user expectations, and anticipate unspoken needs.  

“First,” Nesrine continues, “we need to make sure that whatever we’re building is solving for something that the user is needing. Next, we cannot be content with just meeting user needs; these days, that’s not enough. We need to exceed them. And third, we need to develop the ability to [see around corners], anticipating future needs.

Humanizing AI Interactions

Understanding a user’s motivations for using a product is essential to providing product delight. Though the study of demographic and behavioral segmentation fills in some of the blanks, motivational segmentation helps us tailor products to users’ emotional drivers.

“I think we’re in a much more demanding time for product delight, especially with AI,” Nesrine adds. “AI will certainly improve our product’s functionality. But we should not fall into a world where all products feel like robots. We need to get this human touch, and humanization is extremely important for creating the emotional connection” that drives delight.

At INDUSTRY on September 9-10, the Product Momentum team recorded five in-person episodes that we’ll drip out over the next several weeks. Don’t miss upcoming conversations with John Cutler, Sahil Jain, Axel Sooriah, Shensi Ding, and Michelle Parsons. Great insights from outstanding product leaders!

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Sean Murray [00:00:09] Hey everyone, welcome to Product Momentum. I’m Sean Murray, Director of Product Management here at ITX.

Dan Sharp [00:00:14] And I’m Dan Sharp, a product manager at ITX. It’s our privilege to continue the product momentum journey. A platform that celebrates the thinkers and doers who are shaping the future of software development.

Sean Murray [00:00:25] Our goal is to introduce you to industry leaders, innovators, and practitioners, and bring you their insights, advice, and innovations. We talk with experts from product strategy, UX research and design, security, engineering, leadership, and more. We’ll discuss how their approaches to problems help empower teams and build trust. And we’ll explore trends, tools, and techniques that your team can use to deliver the software solutions your users need today. So tune in, stay curious, and join the conversation.

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Sean Murray [00:01:01] And if you like what you hear, be sure to subscribe, like, comment, and share. That way, we can be sure to provide you with the best podcast experience.

Sean Murray [00:01:14] Dan, we just wrapped with Nesrine Changuel. She is a dynamic thought leader in the space and she’s got a brand new framework called Product Delight that she’s bringing into our space. What’d you think about today’s conversation?

Dan Sharp [00:01:25] Well, first off, it was so much fun. And I think we probably could have gone three times as long as we did. I love it. Right. That, you know, this product delight model that she has in her new book. It’s really, for me, kind of my next professional frontier as a product person, you know thinking beyond purely the functional into, you know, what are those things that have those aha moments for users? Really awesome conversation. Uh, I’m just really excited for people to listen to it.

Sean Murray [00:01:49] Yeah. Build for the motivators. That’s going to be a big takeaway from today. Let’s get to it.

Sean Murray [00:02:03] All right, hey everybody, we are, we have a special episode today. Nesrine Changuel is coming to us straight from London by way of Paris. Nesrine is a product coach, advisor, and speaker with over a decade of senior product experience at Google, Spotify, and Microsoft, where she has participated in building amazing products like Chrome, Meet, Spotify and Skype. She is currently finished, almost finished, with her book, Product Delight, How to Make Your Product Standout with Emotional Connection. We’ve had a quick peek at the book. It looks amazing. Really excited for everybody to get an opportunity to read this, but we are gonna talk with Nesrine today and then we’re gonna give her an opportunity to plug the book at the end. So I’m not gonna say too much more. Nesrine, welcome to Product Momentum.

Nesrine Changuel [00:02:46] Thank you. Thanks so much. Happy to have this conversation today.

Sean Murray [00:02:50] Um, so first talk to us about delight. Why is this so important when building products?

Nesrine Changuel [00:02:55] Okay, so first of all, what is delight? That’s one of the questions I very often get, especially that I’m very vocal about it. And for me, just to simplify it and make it as simple as possible, building delightful product means that we need to build a product that’s all for both functional need and emotional need. So we are very used to building product to make sure that they are functioning well and they are solving a functional problem, but that’s usually not enough. And what I’m really advocating for and promoting these days is make sure that your tech product or whatever product by the way, whether it’s a hardware, software is of course functioning well. It is solving the functional needs, but try also to include users’ emotional need into your solutions. So the combination makes what we call emotional connection. So what we want to achieve is make that there is a connection and an emotional connection between the products and the user. And by the way, emotional connection is not a new concept. Maybe you’ve heard about it mainly in the design area, as well as the marketing area, like the best marketing campaigns are those who are relying on emotion. Like emotion and ads are the best.

However, what I noticed being like in product for most of my career, that this is not something very much spoken about in business and products. So you have designers talking about emotion, you have marketers talking about the emotion, what happens in between is that business and product just get, doesn’t get it. And then you create a gap between the two.

So building, as I said, like building for delight is about conceptualizing solutions that try to combine the two and if I need to give you now very, very little theoretical definition of delight, delight is an emotion. So my definition delight is a type of emotion. And do you know that delight is also a combination of two emotions? And these are joy and surprise. So just think about yourself. If you are in a moment experiencing joy and surprised at the same time, then you are delighted, right? So that’s the definition part.

Now, if we get to the practical part, how can I bring delight into my products? It relies on three pillars. So the first pillar, your product has to solve for a pain, an existing user pain. You need to make sure that whatever you’re building is solving for something that the user is needing. So that’s number one. Number two, it has to come with exceeding expectation. And that’s something that is not necessarily very well addressed, meaning that you should not just meet users’ expectations. That’s not enough anymore as in nowadays. You need to exceed users’ expectation. And the third pillar, we can of course get deeper into these pillars with examples, but the third pillar is to anticipate needs. Remember there is surprise element in delight and in order to get into that positive surprise you should not wait for your user to tell you what they need. You need to anticipate these needs for them so that you surprise them in a positive way. So these are the three practical pillars for delight. Is about solving for an existing user’s pain or need. Second is to anticipate their needs and then you have to exceed their expectation. That’s more or less what defines delight and that’s what I define in the book as well.

Dan Sharp [00:06:33] I love that. I love, you know, that, that delight is this emotion. Like, aha, like, wow, that was cool type reaction to a product. Right. And, and I think they, they don’t happen as often as you wish they did. Right. Like how many times are you using an application? You’re just kind of going through a verse. Like you really remember those times. There’s like, Oh man, that was really neat. Right. Right. So I’m wondering then, you know, you mentioned you’re the three pillars for the product community out there. What are some strategies that product management can put in place to figure out, Hey, like, what are the things that are going to go above and beyond? Just, you know, meeting kind of a functional expectation.

Nesrine Changuel [00:07:08] Yes. So for every product or every feature you’re building, the very first thing you have to start doing is to identify your users, or what we call them personas. And this is what we usually refer to them. And you need to understand your users and categorize them in order to have a better understanding of what they need or what they value, et cetera. And today, there is this technique called segmentation. You need to segment your users. The problem is There are different types of segmentation, and people and most companies do not use the best way of segmenting users. There’s this demographic segmentation which is usually relying on, like for example, who are they, their age, their location, their gender, so it’s very much related to who are my users.

The second type of segmentations is the behavioral segmentation which means what are they doing? What features are they using? How are they are using it? So it’s more about their behavior. And these are the two techniques that I’ve seen mostly these days, especially while coaching other companies.

And there’s a third type of segmentation that is not that much used. And that’s what will make you win, which is the motivational segmentations. Let me explain. It’s about the why, why certain users are using your products. And surprisingly, if you think about it, users are not using your product for the same reason. Let me explained it. Like I’ve been working for Spotify for about four years and we, I get to this concept of understanding the why, why working there and what I learned is that people use Spotify, not for the same reason, depending on the moment and depending on mood and depending on the situation. So you might go to Spotify to listen to a specific song that you have in mind, you might to Spotify because you want to be inspired and please inspire me, give me something according to my taste. You might go to Spotify because you want to change your mood. You might to go to Spotify because you feel lonely and you want to have some vibe in the room to make you more productive. So you see, it’s really important to understand what motivates your users to use your products and then write them down. This is what we call motivational segmentation. And honestly, for me, that’s the strategic start of building for delight. Meaning that you have to have great understanding. Of what motivates your users, and then build for those motivators, not build for who they are. You need to build for why do they need your product.

Dan Sharp [00:09:44] And I think you mentioned in your book, who like that’s getting into like that Jobs To Be Done framework, right, and thinking kind of outside the box of, hey, what are you solving? So I really love that connection and kind of back to some of some of the other theory there.

Nesrine Changuel [00:10:00] Yeah. And by the way, what I love about Job To Be Done. And again, delight is very aligned with everything that delight or job to be done came with. And what I loved about it is that they distinguish between the personal motivators and the social motivators. Let me explain. Like personal emotional motivators is how users want to be or how to feel while using the product. The social part is how they want others to feel about them while using the product, so for example, Some people want to use Spotify because they want to be part of the community. They want to part of something. And that’s why features like collaborative playlist or Spotify Jam exists because people want to share this experience with others. So there is this, of course, the personal emotional motivators, how you want to feel, and there is the social emotional motivator is about, Hey, I want to, feel cool. Take RAPT, for example, it’s an amazing example for how it’s absolutely not functional, by the way. It’s all emotional and it’s all about making you feel how cool you are, so that you can share it with your friends and your community.

Dan Sharp [00:11:10] I was a six year old and a four year old girl. So my Spotify rap has not made me feel cool in four years.

Nesrine Changuel [00:11:18] Yeah, I think Spotify has been working on this, like you can remove and add styles of music, which is making it hopefully a little bit better, yes.

Sean Murray [00:11:28] Yeah, I’m pretty sure that my kids have made the Minecraft soundtrack my most important point. Um, I want to lock onto something that you said before, this kind of, this concept of building for the motivators. I really, I just, the quote is great, right? All time, all time product, momentum, podcast, guest quote. So thank you for that. When building for, the motivator’s, do you think that users need to be pushed towards certain motivators? Do they know essentially what’s going to delight them or do we have to on to use cases or understanding these motivators before users really understand what they need.

Nesrine Changuel [00:12:02] I know it’s going to be rough and maybe a bit strong here. What I’m saying is most users don’t know what motivates them, especially on the emotional level, it’s unknown. It’s somehow hidden. It’s there, but it’s hidden. I mean, and it means that as a product manager or product leader, you need to do this extra job in order to try to uncover that and identify that. And being hard doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s impossible. And here is two tools that I can give you that can uncover this.

First of all, before getting to the tools, you can uncover that by regular conversation. The more you get to know them, the more you deeper into conversation with users, the more or the better understanding you get through their values, their desire, and their motivation. And by the way, I’m gonna share an example, an end product related example. Like when I left my research time, I was a researcher in my very early career. My ex-colleagues wanted to give me a gift, like a goodbye farewell gift. So they actually gave me a macaroon kit box. So it’s a box that allows me, or to hopefully succeed, baking macaroons. Now, let me tell you the story why I’m remembering this and why I still have it and why i love this gift. The reason why I love this is because a couple of months before I left I was telling my colleague how I love baking, but also how I failed so many times. Baking macaroons and how hard it is to bake macaroon at home. So the fact that they gave me that gift was a proof that it was heard, it was very personal, it was related to me, it related to my story.

Now, what if you treat your users as if you’re giving them a gift, like product is a gift. So the more you get to know them, the more listen to them, the more personal the product get, the more connection or emotional connection you can create.

Now let’s go back to how you can uncover this motivator. The first one that I personally applied during my product time is to try to identify demotivators, because motivators, emotional motivators are hard. Demotivator, which is the opposite, are much easier to identify. For example, users are much more open to tell you what frustrates them or what makes them angry or what stress them out. These are easy to identify So for example, during my time, I worked as a product lead at Google Meet and it happens that I work at Google meet right when pandemic happened like, uh, and hit the world and in Europe, we were all locked down, et cetera. So I had to understand what demotivate users during that time with this type of behavior, what’s going on. So I was able to identify things like people are saying, I felt bored. There was this concept of Zoom fatigue where I’m very tired from having back-to-back meetings. There was the concept of, oh, there’s a low interaction compared to being in a room. So for me, it was much easier to identify the demotivators and solve for the demotivators than identifying what they really wanted. So that’s one tool.

The second tool that you can apply to uncover motivators is actually to try to lean forward and try to identify what user really value. I mean, what do they really value so that I can create solutions that is 100% aligned with their values. For example, if they value self-esteem and maybe you can create features that are aligned with their self-esteem; if they value security, then you need to create features that solve for valuing security. So these are things that you can work on in parallel of identifying the motivators. So that your solutions are both aligned with what they want, but also with their values. And also it’s a way to avoid falling into the trap of creating addictive features. Because if you create features that are aligned with you of your user’s value, then there will be a higher level of trust and you will avoid getting into a world of addiction, et cetera.

Dan Sharp [00:16:14] Oh man, love the end of that answer. Like really, we feel like we really took a right-hand turn in like some of the ethics of product management. So really appreciate you bringing that up. Yeah, you mentioned earlier, kind of the three pillars of delight. I’m curious to hear, you know, you talk a little bit about that. What is product delight not? And also, how is product people, can we get buy-in from business leaders who maybe they hear the concept of light and they just hear like things that are esthetically pleasing, right?

Nesrine Changuel [00:16:42] Actually, I want to highlight here that there are three misconceptions I hear a lot when I talk about delight. And I want highlight them here so at least we have a clear understanding. The very first one is that delight is not about esthetic. So I heard you saying, talking about esthetic, it is a type of delight and you usually call it like the surface delight, it’s when you add this interaction or this little sound or these are related to the design and it’s called surface delights. So the real delight that I’m here for, and I’m writing the entire book for, is not for the esthetic or it’s not something that just to make your product nicer and shiny. So that’s the first misunderstanding.

The second misunderstanding is that people sometimes perceive delight as a luxury. It’s something for the big company. People came to me and said, yeah, Nisreen, you’re talking about delight because you You worked for Spotify, you worked for Skype, you work for Google. But we are a small company. I mean, we can’t necessarily afford working on that. And honestly, I know it’s a bit shocking to say that, but they are Spotify and they are Google because they believe in the emotional connection from the start. I mean see it from the opposite, not because they are rich and they’re big that they invest in emotional connection and delight. So that’s the second misconception. It’s like, delight is for luxury, it’s for big company.

And the third misunderstanding or mistake I hear a lot is like, delight is for B2C. We are a B2B company and that’s not our priority. We should not care about creating delightful product. And honestly, this is one of the biggest mistake as well, because I see very large company nowadays starting to understand that there is a need for honoring emotions, even in business, because like the competition is very severe and it’s becoming like the expectation bar is getting higher. You can’t just make your product functioning. And that’s all. Like a company like Atlassian, for example, I’ve been interviewing while writing the book and for their product, like JIRA, et cetera, they are investing so heavily into making the product manager or whoever using the tool, by the way, feeling good about themselves, feeling relaxed, having these good emotions while using the product, for example, you can customize templates and stuff. So these didn’t used to be the case a couple of years ago. So there is a tendency that even in B2B, it’s becoming something expected.

So these are the three, I think, mistakes that I hear a lot or at least things that get repeated, like delight is nice to have, delight for luxury, and delight B2C. Now, if you wanna convince your leaders and you want this to be prioritized, usually my advice is to start small. I mean… Adopt the mindset first get understanding that delight is not just esthetic. It’s not just design. It’s a way of working the next time you’re building a feature, question the following, say the ask the following question is my feature functional only, or am I aligned with my user’s emotional motivator so I can create something more attractive and more hopefully emotionally connected.

Sean Murray [00:19:55] Oh man, that’s great. You mentioned starting small. One of the things that we’re wondering is how do we practically apply this into like, let’s think about like the tactical product level, right? Where I’ve been tasked with a new project. We’ve got a charter written, or maybe we’re in the charter writing phase. When the early, when the early part of discovery, how do we bring this new practice of delight into our current way of work?

Nesrine Changuel [00:20:15] First of all, this is a question I receive a lot, especially on stage, where people ask, how can I put in my roadmap both delightful feature and functional feature? How can I balance between the two? And my answer is usually try to shift away from saying delight versus functionality, but rather think about delight in functionality. So how can you, of course, bring functionality? And don’t get me wrong. I’m here to say value is really important. You need to bring functionality into your product, and that’s why your product exists. What I’m usually advocating for is, how can we turn this functionality from being functional only to functional and emotional at the same time, which I call deep delight in this case. So let me give you a concrete story. Maybe from the story, we can get better understanding of how you can get that. So when I worked at Google Chrome, I’ve been working on one of the biggest challenge, which is tab management, and more particularly tab management on mobile. Like we know that a lot of Chrome users are having so many tabs open. And of course, that’s of course a technical issue because it takes memory, it takes space from a performance. Ideally, we want users to have less open tabs, but also even for the users themselves, It’s a problem because it calls them like longer time to navigate through their tab or if they try to find a tab in their tab grid, it’s much more complex. So as a PM at that time, I had to address this problem. So we identify this as an opportunity of improvement. Now, instead of fixing it as or solving for it from a functional perspective, we interviewed users and we tried to understand what they value, what they don’t value, what’s okay, what’s absolutely not okay. And we understood, for example, that users do have a very, very strong relation with their tabs. I mean, I didn’t even expect that, but people for them, it’s a no-go that Chrome can touch the order of their tabs or can close tabs on their behalf. Even if they haven’t been touched for more than three months. Don’t touch my tab. Like it’s, it, it a matter of trust. So we knew that we will never ever close tabs on users’ behalf because otherwise. We would lose user trust. So what can we do to solve this functional issue? So we interviewed users. We asked them to show us how they navigate their tabs in order to find one tab among others. And I love these moments because these moments show how people interact with your product. And also I loved listening to what they said because some of them said, oh, sorry, I usually don’t have so many tabs open. They felt like the need to excuse or apologize sometimes. We took all these insights into consideration and we built a solution for it. And the solution that exists today on iOS is called Inactive Tabs. So Inactive tabs is a group of tabs where tabs that has not been touched for more than 20 days are in there. So users can find their tabs, not closed on their behalf, but we’re cleaning the tab grid for them. We’re making the tab read less stressful, cleaner and easier to navigate through. So that was one of the solutions that we proposed that is not only functional. As you can see, we could have tried to think about, hey, how can we reduce or compress them, names or something like that. But at the same time, try to solve it in a way that complies and works with what users value.

Sean Murray [00:23:54] The whole tabs conversation, uh, just, just the, just the whole concept of like that users were really about, do not touch my tabs. I feel like I see that on like a daily basis when somebody shares their screen in a, in a working environment. Right. Uh, and I’ve seen what tab I have that’s been open for longer than 20 days and it’s probably just Gmail. I think like a pretty, just a pretty direct correlation to kind of like what you’ve been talking about this, uh this entire, this entire episode. Dan and I are contractually obligated to in every. Podcast to mention AI and to talk about AI. So I do want to ask you a question about how does the concept of AI or is there a practical application of AI that involves delight? We actually just met and talked at a really good conversation with Lena Sesardic talking about custom GPTs. So, I don’t know if there’s like a delight GPT in your future or but just trying to understand How is this growing application of AI in product management? How will that be impacted by delight? Or how can we take advantage of AI to help further the use of delight in our process?

Nesrine Changuel [00:24:57] Thank you for bringing this very useful question by the way. And I want to say that AI of course, as any other tool is a tool that could be used in a good way or could be used in bad or wrong way. And of course every product is trying to insert AI, trying to make the best use of AI from the functional perspective. And I can, I cannot agree more than saying, Hey, like If you use AI, you’re getting a faster code or less error or you’re more effective and efficient products. And that’s the functional part. It means that you are improving your product from a functional side. Now think about how can I use AI so that of course functional improvement is happening, but at the same time, I’m trying to align with improving the emotional side. It’s actually very apt today, because for example, I use chat GPT quite a lot. And sometimes chat GPTs give me crap. I mean, from an answer perspective, it’s completely wrong. However, I still like it and I still use it because I like the way chat GPTS answering me and giving me advices and apologizing when I say it’s wrong. And I mean it feels like I’m less lonely, especially now that I moved into the freelancing area where I feel sometimes lonely and having chance to be next to me, give me this feeling. That I have an assistant and I’m working out on my own, even if sometimes I’m not even using the advice or the answers or whatever I’m giving to ChatGPT for. So what I want to highlight here is I think we are even in a much more demanding time for delight, especially with AI, because for sure, functionality would be improved. For sure, functionality is improving, by the way, thanks to the AI support. However, we should not fall into this robotic world where all products feel like robots. We need to get this human touch, and humanization is extremely important for creating emotional connection.

Let me give you, by the way, an AI-related example, but I love talking about it. When I worked at Google Meet, I told you it was COVID time. We did not compare Google Meet to Zoom or Teams or whatever other video conferencing tool. What we used to compare Google Meet to at that time is, how would it be better if we were all meeting in the same room? Because that raises the bar. That gives you the best expectation. And if you manage to meet that expectation or that bar, you’re already making a huge improvement into your product. So it’s about humanizing the product. How would the human case would be better than your product today? And it’s funny, because when I spoke with the head of product at Dyson, he gave me more or less the same thing. He said that we do not compare our robot to other competitors. We compare to what if you hire a real person to clean your house. And that was interesting because when you hire someone to clean your house, you might give that person recommendation or instruction. And they got inspired by that in order to add recommendation into their robots. I told you it’s not AI related, but it’s very important and very, for me, it’s really important to highlight the fact that improving functioning is really, of course, key. But let’s not forget about the humanization part for product two. We love interacting with human products at the end of the day.

Dan Sharp [00:28:33] That’s, I love that, you know, you, you brought that up at the end, right? That I feel like sometimes as product people, it’s so easy to fall into like almost a trap of what are my competitors doing, but if you free yourself from that, like there, there’s a whole world of creativity and creative solutions that can be found that will differentiate you just because you’re looking at things in a fresh way. So speaking of products, right, you have a personal product that you are launching. Your book product light how to make your product stand out with emotional connection is hitting bookshelves on September 23rd Super excited to get my hands on it. Thank you for a sneak peek. What would you like to have people know about it?

Nesrine Changuel [00:29:12] Yeah, so first of all, this book is a catalog of personal product stories. So that’s what I want to first highlight. I mean, it’s not only like theory or whatever about how to implement Delight. Actually before even having the idea of writing the book, I was talking about Delight on stages, on conferences, but I quickly realized that people are super interested in the topic and they wanted to learn more, so I started writing. And when I started writing, I started writing my personal. Product stories, how we built Skype from scratch, how we build like video into Spotify. Like when I joined Spotify, it was only audio. And then we started implementing like video podcasts, video clips, how, how do we get to that? And then this COVID time at Google Meets, I started writing about it and then the Chrome. And from that I said, Hey, this is enough to get something bigger and something like a book. So I started to create Product Delight out of my product stories. And to compliment, I had to interview, of course, other product leaders from super big companies like GitHub, Dropbox, Atlassian, in order to see others’ view of emotional connection and delight. So for those who are interested in the book, I just wanted to highlight that. Of course, there are ways of how you can implement delight into your product, but also it’s a lot of inspirational stories that make you reflect and think about how can you get into that mindset?

Dan Sharp [00:30:40] That’s awesome. Feels like we really have an area that product people in general kind of really can grow into. So everyone go out there, grab a copy of this book. I know I’m going to be reading through it. I’m really pumped for it.

Sean Murray [00:30:54] As somebody who teaches a lot of frameworks and runs workshops where we practically use frameworks. I’m a little jealous that you’ve created your own and maybe I’ll steal it for a workshop in the future. Who knows? Not without consent. Some takeaways. Really great conversation today. Thank you so much for being here with us. Just something early on that you said was kind of a focus on exceeding expectations, knowing what users want and then trying to find some way to go above and beyond. Hitting what they want or what they need is not enough I think that’s just a great mindset shift for any product team, right? I also really liked some of the uses of your Spotify cases. Kind of like, why am I using this? Why do I need this? Maybe the users may not know the answers to those questions, right. But you’ve found something that would delight them and that is ultimately going to create a great product. I mentioned this before, but that quote around building for the motivators and making sure that you are anytime that you’re releasing some sort of new feature, you’re thinking about it as giving them a gift. I really like that concept. And the example that you provided about the macaroons made me hungry. And then just delight being a way of working and that it’s not a shiny esthetic. I think that that kind of hammers home the framework concept on top of a term that maybe has been used in other contexts within product delivery. But just the fact we are trying to find something that is gonna build a new way that a human is gonna actually get value from the product that you’re working on. And it may not be something that they totally expect. The last thing always, don’t touch my tabs. So whoever is out there working for, you know, if you’re working, if you are out there and you’re on the Firefox team or if you were on the Chrome team, whatever browser, right, don’t touch people’s tabs, right? So that I’m gonna push for that as the title of the episode. Probably go poorly like the rest of my episode title suggestions, but that was my big final. But a big final takeaway, right? You can also, you can create the lack of delight by removing things that people really use to bond and depend on, right.

Nesrine Changuel [00:33:00] I call it anti-delight.

Sean Murray [00:33:02] Anti-delight. All right, we’re going to avoid and awesome. Well, Nesrine, thank you so much for being here today. I hope the rest of your stay in London is awesome.

Nesrine Changuel [00:33:10] So much. Thank you for having me.

Closing[00:33:17] Well, that’s it for today. In line with our goals of transparency and listening, we really want to hear from you. Sean and I are committed to reading every piece of feedback that we get. So please leave a comment or a rating wherever you’re listening to this podcast. Not only does it help us continue to improve, but it also helps the show climb up the rankings so that we can help other listeners move, touch, and inspire the world, just like you’re doing. Thanks everyone, we’ll see you next episode.