In our current environment of rapidly changing customer needs and expectations, evolving technologies, and unpredictable market swings, the best ideas rarely come from a single leader. Instead, as attendees of the 2026 ITX Product + Design Conference learned, they emerge when product teams collaborate, challenge assumptions, and adapt together.

In this episode of Product Momentum, Rachel Kohman, Ed.D. joined Sean and Dan for an in-person chat, discussing why adaptive leadership helps organizations solve today’s toughest product and technology problems. Rachel, Assistant Dean of Entrepreneurship Education at Missouri S&T, draws from her experience developing future engineers, entrepreneurs, and leaders, to offer practical guidance for creating teams where everyone contributes to better decisions.

Here’s what we learned:

Leadership Is Everyone’s Responsibility

Adaptive leadership challenges the long-held assumption that the person with authority has all the answers. Today’s problems are too complex for any one individual to solve alone, Rachel says. Product managers, UX designers, engineers, and researchers each bring their own unique perspectives to deliver desired outcomes. Not surprisingly, she adds, organizational performance improves when leadership becomes a shared responsibility.

“And that’s what’s so interesting with adaptive leadership; it actually starts to change the narrative. “It’s like, ‘wait a second, the challenges we’re facing are too complex to have a single right solution.’”

For product teams, the adaptive leadership mindset creates an environment where product team members contribute new ideas because they see opportunities – not because they’ve been directed to.

Psychological Safety Drives Better Decision Making

Echoing the sentiments of episode 78 guest Dr. Timothy Clark, Rachel says that too many good ideas remain trapped in hallway discussions or private chat messages, mostly because team members are hesitant to challenge authority. Psychological safety, what Dr. Clark refers to as the great enabler, requires people in positions of authority to model and reward everyday acts of vulnerability. Beginning with respectful communication (as opposed to public confrontation), team members should present their concerns early on with an eye toward improving the product instead of proving someone wrong.

“It’s that curiosity,” Rachel continues, “it’s asking those questions of others and being willing to not have all the answers yourself.”

This approach is not without risk, but its benefits are every bit as real: teams surface issues sooner, discovery improves, and teams emerge with better decisions before costly mistakes reach customers.

Take a Step Back To See the Whole System

Adaptive leadership also requires “stepping away” from daily execution, Rachel says. She describes the practice as “going to the balcony” – intentionally creating distance to recognize broader patterns instead of reacting only to immediate tasks.

Teams who cannot see a world beyond the sprint work, feature requests, tech debt, and deadlines fail to observe market trends, learn from adjacent teams, and become aware of changes across the organization.

“If you don’t take the opportunity to take a step back and pause the noise, you’re losing out on an opportunity to perceive the world around you.”

Leadership Is Every Team Member’s Responsibility

Adaptive leadership is not just another management framework; it’s a practical way of helping organizations respond to uncertainty. Grounded in psychological safety, product teams become more resilient when people feel comfortable sharing new ideas, questioning assumptions, and learning together.

Rachel Kohman, in her own words:

• [03:35] Changing the narrative of leader as ‘only the person in authority.’ The term leader has actually been the noun synonymous with the person in the top spots, right? And so what’s interesting with adaptive leadership is that it actually starts to kind of change that narrative and say, ‘wait a second, the challenges we’re facing do not have like a single right solution.’  
• [04:38] Not for the risk-averse. It is a little bit risky for everyone; we’re asking people who are in a position of authority to become comfortable with ideas coming from others, and they actually need to be willing to listen. At the same time though, the people who aren’t in the position of authority have to be willing to step up and not just say, ‘I’ll do whatever the boss says.’
• [09:53] Adaptive leadership can reduce our volume of work. I do think that as we start to integrate it into our work, it becomes part of that culture of everybody is bringing their perspective and  their expertise; it actually eases up on the amount of work that you have to do.
• [11:20] Entrepreneurship requires curiosity. I love when different schools of thought come together. So I don’t have to be an ardent follower of only one thing. So with entrepreneurship there’s also this idea of ‘where’s your curiosity?’ And with leadership I think it’s the same way. It’s that curiosity, it’s asking those questions of other people and being willing to not have all the answers yourself.
• [17:29] The adaptability of adaptive leadership. I have found ways to utilize it all across my life. I practice this in my home, in my work, with my friends, which I think is really cool. Yeah, my next book is actually how being a parent helps you be a better leader, not the other way around. It’s amazing!
• [18:13] The view from the balcony. Sometimes we need to step back a bit, away from the busy-ness and noise of the day-to-day tasks. For illustration: if you’ve ever seen a marching band, like on a football field, but you’re actually down on the field at the same level as the band. It can look just really busy and there’s a lot happening. But when you move way up to the top of the stands, suddenly you’re seeing what is evolving in these beautiful intricate movements. Gives you a whole different like vantage point, right?

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Sean Murray [00:00:09] All of a sudden, you are adapting a role, a leader. Like part of what you are being asked to do by your company is to lead in certain situations, right? How do we make people feel comfortable in that role or executing that function?

Rachel Kohman [00:00:22] I do not recommend that the first time you try out that method is when you’ve got like the whole team meeting, they’re leading into the front of the room, and you say, I disagree. Instead, find an opportunity to actually maybe like one-on-one with that authority figure say, hey, I want to let you know I’m seeing something from my vantage point. I want make sure that we’ve got the best outlook for this project, that we’re doing the most, you know, sustainable, holistically well-rounded approach. And here’s what I’ve seen. What do you think? How can we? How can I help bring this up at our next meeting? But it’s more of like, no, I care very much about where we’re going with this. I know you care a lot about this. Let’s find where our purposes converge and how we can work together on that.

Dan Sharp [00:01:02] Yesterday, we had a workshop on adaptive leadership and a workshop in product discovery. Yeah, and as a product person, I thought there’s this really cool overlap. And yeah, in going after a product problem or an adaptive problem, there’s that piece where you gotta kinda step back. So I’d love to hear your talk, how you walk through that observation phase.

Rachel Kohman [00:01:20] Heifetz and Linsky were the original authors of adaptive leadership. And one of the things, one of kind of the phrases that they coined was this idea of going to the balcony. And so the illustration I get for this is if you have ever seen a marching band, like on a football field, right? You’re down on the field. If you’re at the band level, you are seeing people playing instruments. And it can look just really busy and there’s a lot happening. But when you like go all the way up to the top of the stands and you’re in like the press box, suddenly you’re seeing what is evolving and these beautiful intricate displays and it’s a whole different like vantage point. And so that kind of going to that balcony and saying, wait, help me understand what’s kind of happening down there on the dance floor of the field is what can be incredibly powerful and kind of taking that, I guess that step back.

Sean Murray [00:02:07] I look forward now that I know that people like you are educating like the next generation of the workforce. I’m looking forward to more people that are engaged and willing to make decisions, right? And having the, I don’t know, gumption, the bravery, right, to help us to help us make the best decisions moving forward.

Rachel Kohman [00:02:25] What I’m hearing from some of these students and some of like the industry partners are, okay, these students were asking way different questions than we’ve seen before. They’re asking less about specifically tell me what you need the function to be for exactly what you’re looking for and said, who are we trying to serve here? What are the other things that are happening in the company? Where are some other opportunities that we can high end.

Dan Sharp [00:02:57] We have Dr. Rachel Coleman with us today on the pod. She is the Assistant Dean of Entrepreneurship Education at Missouri S&T, PhD in Adaptive Leadership. Thanks for coming to hang out with us.

Rachel Kohman [00:03:09] Thank you guys for having me. I’m just really excited to get to talk more about my passion project. So thank you for being willing listeners.

Dan Sharp [00:03:17] Yeah. Awesome. So your passion projects is one of my side interests. Yeah. Leadership studies. Yeah. When I was in grad school, we learned kind of the four pillars. Oh, yeah. Authoritarian leadership, transactional, transformational servant leadership. Yeah. You’re coming from the lens of adaptive leadership. And I think there’s folks out there who would like to just understand what that means.

Rachel Kohman [00:03:35] Yeah, no, absolutely. So really like the study and evolution of leadership primarily has actually been based in the hierarchy of organizations. And so primarily and historically, the term leader has actually been the noun synonymous with the person in the top spots, right? And so what’s interesting with adaptive leadership is that it actually starts to kind of change that narrative and say, wait a second, the challenges we’re facing do not have like a single right solution. So instead of expecting this one person in a position of authority to simply like be the leader and everybody else just do what they’re told, we actually all need to come together and we need to figure out how to kind of continue to support the efforts and be willing to try out a lot of different little things to make progress rather than like the one bandaid quick fix approach.

Dan Sharp [00:04:26] A really interesting idea. I feel like you mentioned something earlier in your keynote where breaking leadership away from authority and turning leadership into the verb, right? Leading that everybody can lead.

Rachel Kohman [00:04:38] Yes, yeah, so now with that idea, it is a little bit risky though, because what you were asking is people who are in a position of authority to start becoming more comfortable with this idea of other ideas are going to come up and you’re going to have to actually be like maybe willing to listen to that. At the same time though, the people who aren’t in the position of authority have to be willing to step up and not just, I’ll do whatever the boss says. So it’s a little bit risky both ways, but again. Going back to, I think by and large, the problems that we’re facing, no matter your industry or organization, it is not just a simple, like fix this one code and it’s all gonna be better. We’re dealing with people, we’re dealing an ever-changing environment. Like we have to be willing to get a lot more perspectives engaged.

Dan Sharp [00:05:25] Yeah, you really talk about psychological safety, but also like, feeling safe yourself, right? Like not just being in the environment, but having your own courage to speak up.

Rachel Kohman [00:05:34] Yeah, yeah, you do. And it’s, you know, part of my keynote earlier and a lot of the workshops that I lead is actually getting people to start testing out and practicing small ways that they maybe wouldn’t be comfortable maybe like speaking up or using silence to like try and draw out more information or simply saying like, ooh, I don’t actually know about that and asking for some more questions and perspectives. Like it doesn’t sound like earth shattering but at the same time, it’s not a skill that we’re always super comfortable with because again, we’re kind of right into this idea of I have to have all the answers and if I want to prove I’m the right person for the job, I better be able to answer any question anybody has. And I really would challenge that and say, that’s not necessarily what’s going to be the most effective or most helpful. And that’s where I think adaptive leadership can come to play.

Dan Sharp [00:06:18] I mean, Sean, you and I, we like to use the silent method during the podcast, especially, to really weigh people out. Oh, yeah. It’s great entertainment.

Rachel Kohman [00:06:24] Oh, so you’re well versed in it.

Sean Murray [00:06:25] It works very well. So I feel like we’ve done something a little like, we went to industry years ago and Marty Kagan gave everybody that was in a certain role a promotion from the stage. Basically said that product ownership doesn’t exist as its own role. Product ownership is a subset of what product managers do. So if you have the title of product owner, you have become a product manager and you can tell them that Marty said so, right? And I feel, I feel you are telling us that everybody has now. All of a sudden you are adapting a role, a leader. Like part of what you are being asked to do by your company is to lead in certain situations, right? So how do we make people feel, like you talked about the psychological safety, how do make people comfortable in that role or executing that function? What are the skills that they need in order to be able to do that?

Rachel Kohman [00:07:16] Yeah. So one of the things, um, I mean, obviously I come from a college campus. So working with like first semester freshmen, and I’m like, challenge the status quo, please do not go in and start yelling at your professor. Like that is not a safe risk to take.

Sean Murray [00:07:30] Shoo, yeah.

Rachel Kohman [00:07:31] Do not do that, okay? If you have, apologize to the professor, I need you to pass that class. All right, but yeah, so what we talk about is how do you design more like some safe risks or some test out some smaller experiments instead of just like throw the authority figure away from the company. Some of it is actually kind of more that psychological safety. If you someone who is in a position of leadership or I should say a position authority and… You you want to bring up kind of a contrary view or you want to bring an issue that they maybe haven’t thought about. I do not recommend that the first time you try out that method is when you’ve got like the whole team meeting, they’re leading it at the front of the room, and you say, I disagree, we didn’t look at this, you overlooked that problem. Not really a greater approach. Instead, find an opportunity to actually maybe like one-on-one with that authority figure, say, hey… I want to let you know, I’m seeing something from my vantage point. I want make sure that we’ve got the best outlook for this project, that we’re doing the most sustainable, holistically well-rounded approach. And here’s what I’ve seen. What do you think? How can I help bring this up at our next meeting? Don’t also just put it on them to have to have all the information, but figure out how they want to volley it back to you maybe in that next group session. Okay, the other big thing I talk about a lot is the fact of In these meetings, when you’re discussing things, if there’s a lot of what we call parking lot conversations or other times like the side teams chat happening about OMG, I cannot believe that they’re still talking about like, this is ridiculous. Nobody wants this product feature or nobody wants this time, like nobody can do this. When you are seeing a lot of that happening it’s actually your responsibility. If you’re the one having all those side chats you at that point say, you know what? This is not productive. So I need to figure out a different way to engage it. And it probably is. You do have to talk to a lot of authority figures sometimes. Again, it’s a little risky. You’re gonna want some of that relationship building with your authority figure as well. So they like are trusting that you’re not trying to like overthrow them. But that’s where everything comes from. It’s really having that conversation not only of like, I wanna prove you don’t know what you’re doing. I wanna to prove you miss something. But it’s more of like no, I care very much about where we’re going with this. I know you care a lot about this. Let’s find where our purposes converge. And how we can work together on that.

Sean Murray [00:09:46] Okay. So preserve their authority through your method, but be brave, but not too abrasive.

Rachel Kohman [00:09:53] Yes. Now what I would also say though is as I myself have been not just teaching metaphors but I practice this in my day-to-day life, in my home, in my work, with my friends, which I think is also really cool. This is the first time I ever had a leadership theory where I’m like wait a second this works with my spouse, this works with my kids, withmy grandparents. Like there’s this whole new world of opportunities but to that regard it’s as you start practicing more and the culture of your teams and your organizations change. I have no problem, and my, the students I work with, no, I am totally open for them to come up and just tell me, and even in a group meeting, they feel more comfortable now saying, Rachel, I don’t agree with where we’re going with this. I don’t like this. And they know that I’m going to be receptive to that. So I think as you build up that tolerance for this new approach, it will evolve. So you’re not constantly like, oh my gosh, I’m gonna have to have a side meeting with my boss before every meeting, that sounds exhausting. I do think that as we start to integrate it into our work, it becomes part of that culture of everybody is bringing their perspective, their expertise, it actually eases up on the amount of work that you have to do.

Dan Sharp [00:11:06] Okay, he said something really interesting there that I feel like gets to the heart of adaptive leadership. And I think most of us don’t think of it as leadership, but just that act of speaking up. Yeah. In a non-authoritative role, like it is an act of leading in and of itself.

Rachel Kohman [00:11:20] Yeah, so actually one of the ways I’ve heard this, which also leans into some of my work with entrepreneurship, surprisingly, I love when I have these different schools of thought that come and tie together, and I’m like, oh, this all makes sense together. Awesome. So I don’t have to be an ardent follower of only one thing. So with entrepreneurship there’s also this idea of where’s your curiosity? And with leadership I think it’s the same way. It’s that curiosity, it’s asking those questions of other people and being willing to not have all the answers yourself though. And that’s, I think, the other piece of it. If you’re in a position of authority, you have been working to build a team. You’re hiring on people that you are trusting, like with their skillsets they’re bringing in. So you need to trust that they actually have that some of those strengths and skillsets that you yourself may not have. One of my members of my team is a wonderful, very detailed, data-driven person. Phenomenal. That is not my strength. And I am fully aware of that, right? But what we had to do and figure out pretty quickly though is when she would come to me and ask for like some of the details, I had to be comfortable not just saying, oh, and like making stuff on the cusp, you know, as we could do at times, but actually saying, I don’t know about that, but I could give her the big picture, the like brushstrokes and then say, but I trust you to dig into the specific policy pieces that we have to tie it up. So in the specific metrics that we need to pull into this. And that was where she would take it and she would run. And so that was also the other piece of it. As you know, in my position of the authority figure, trusting my team and letting them like go run with their strengths also makes my job so much easier. Cause please do not make me spend the time checking every line of the Excel spreadsheet or doing the math. It won’t go well.

Sean Murray [00:13:01] Speaking up seems the way to practice being a leader with your peers, right? So we’ve talked about communicating up, we’ve talk about kind of like being a later, now like speaking up as a way of being a leader on your level. What’s, now you are the authority figure and you want to inspire leadership within your teams. What are some methods for doing that?

Rachel Kohman [00:13:21] Yeah, so I think part of it is actually working, first of all, to develop a trustworthy process. Now, there’s this delicate balance. Whenever people hear trustworthy, they’re like, oh, I have to be completely transparent. And that’s not, like, I can’t say everything. And I’m not suggesting you should. There are times when you can’t actually say everything, but you need to instill in your team this awareness of like, you have their best interests at heart. And then it really is kind of making sure there’s not a say, do gap, okay? You have to, if you say that I support you, I want you to go and run with this, I’ve got your back. And if they stumble with that project, I am gonna be the one who takes the heat for that. If anybody comes and says that didn’t go out, my fault, my bad, not a problem. And then I have a one-on-one conversation separately about, hey, here’s some things that we could adjust next time moving forward. I am never going to publicly call out any of my people. Even if it’s just a minor corrective action, we’re not doing that in public. We’re going to do that as a one-on-one in a coaching situation. The other thing is I think being vulnerable and being authentic in a position of authority. I love the work of Renee Brown, her work on vulnerability and just, she’s also a phenomenal storyteller. So if you’re not a reader, watch her TED Talks, amazing stuff. But it’s also the fact of, especially with my teams, I am the first one to own up when I overlook something, I miss something. I created a problem that somebody else then had to clean up. Like I try to be very upfront, and almost. Like public to a certain degree about, hey, I’m not perfect, therefore they don’t think they’re expected to be perfect either. What’s interesting about that approach, and especially like I’m working with some very, very young professionals, you know, college students, prefrontal cortex still being developed. So sometimes there’s a few more mistakes than before. And actually by helping them realize that even they look at me sometimes like you’ve got it all figured out. And I’m like, oh no, no, look behind the curtain.

Rachel Kohman [00:15:12] It’s a hot mess back here. I shoved it all in the linen closet, but here you go. Like it’s tumbling out now. But helping them see like, oh, and I actually, they understand that I don’t have it all figured out. When they themselves are working on something, they come to me so much quicker with, Rachel, I think this is falling apart. I think I messed up with my internship and I’m worried about what the future is. I don’t know that this is the right career I’m supposed to go into. Help me figure it out. And for me, yes, if you come earlier when you think there might be a problem and are honest with that instead of trying to do this shuffle of everything’s fine here, I’ve got it all figured out, we still have time to figure out what a much better opportunity is for you. And so that’s the other thing, especially like my work is really driven like trying to support student success or success of individuals. And I’m like, if can be honest and open with when things aren’t working out and start reaching out to figure it out. What are my options? Who might be a resource? The sooner the better. So I tried to just, again, I think for those authority figures in the room, when you’ve got that title, don’t make that approach of, well, I therefore know everything and I can never be wrong and I could never admit that I don’t have it all together. Because I think you’re doing a disservice to your team and to the organization.

Sean Murray [00:16:30] Yeah, it sounds like by allowing people that space to breathe and practice that leadership, you’re actually going to get exposed to things that you need to change faster, right? So whether it’s a risk with the product that you’re building or whether it may be the target of the market that you are trying to hit with the change that you are implementing, all of a sudden, because you’ve enabled them, you actually get exposure to it faster, and you’re able to adapt.

Rachel Kohman [00:16:57] Oh, absolutely.

Sean Murray [00:16:58] I think we’ve been talking a lot about being built for speed as something that’s really AI centric, but I think that’s allowing people to be agents of change and giving them the opportunity to have that feedback. So I really like that exposure to ideas earlier is another way of being built-for-speed.

Dan Sharp [00:17:18] Also, I mean, the advice, like being vulnerable makes like, I was thinking about like how that’s relevant also, just as a parent, right? As his house. Um, so that would be for the new offshoot parenting podcast that we start. Yeah.

Rachel Kohman [00:17:29] Yeah, my next book is actually how being a parent helps you be a better leader, not the other way around. It’s my gosh, like it is it’s amazing. But again, going back to adaptive leadership, I have found ways to utilize it all across my life.

Dan Sharp [00:17:42] So Yeah. Yeah. And Sean, you’re talking about layout, the thinking component. Yesterday we had a workshop on adaptive leadership and a workshop on product discovery. Yeah. And as a product person, I thought there’s this really cool overlap, right? Cause you’re talk about adaptive challenges, right. Where they’re open-ended, they involve people, right, they’re human problems. Yep. And yeah, in, in going after a product problem or an adaptive problem, right there’s that piece where you got to kind of step back. Um, so I’d love to hear you, you talk about how you walk through that observation phase.

Rachel Kohman [00:18:13] Yeah, so I guess that’s one of the other parts and parcels that Heifetz and Linsky were the original like authors of adaptive leadership. And one of things, one of kind of the phrases that they coined was this idea of going to the balcony. And so the illustration I get for this is if you have ever seen a marching band, like on a football field, right, you’re down the field. If you’re at the band level, you are seeing people playing instruments, and it can look just really busy and there’s a lot happening. But when you like go all the way up to the top of the stands and you’re in like the press box Suddenly you’re seeing what is evolving in these beautiful intricate Displays and it’s a whole different like vantage point, right? Well in the same way in the work that we do it is super easy and understandable That we are so busy simply keeping caught up on our email making sure we don’t miss like the team’s notifications Making sure we’re not missing like a deadline that it’s completely understandable that that is what consumes you. But if you do not take the opportunity when you have it to like pause with the noise, I would say, and take the step back and say, wait a second, what else is happening in my organization or in the industry? What might be some hurdles we have coming up and asking some of those, like maybe those other product teams or other organizations, I actually will try to connect with other universities and ask them like, wait, a second. Are you seeing an issue over here? Can you tell me what you’re seeing, how you’re dealing with it? And so that kind of going to that balcony and saying, wait, help me understand what’s kind of happening down there on the dance floor of the field is what can be incredibly powerful and kind of taking that, I guess, that step back. And so, that’s, I think, another piece of how do you also stay curious about what’s happening? Because if you’re simply trying to respond to the emails and get that day-to-day stuff done, you’re kind of losing out on the opportunity to ask. What’s happening over here? I want to know more about this opportunity, because I’ll be real honest. I work on an engineering-centric campus. I am not an engineer. I don’t know if you picked up on that from my whole guide, but for me, I actually will try and build in time during my week if I’ve got a meeting over here and the mechanical engineering building meeting with a group. And I’ve got another hour free, I don’t scurry back to my office. I actually try to intentionally go kind of walk around either that building or meander through another building to go out because what I end up seeing is some posters about events that are happening. Or I run into a professor or a dean of another area and I’d be like, oh, hey, how was that like research project? How’s the other thing? And those weird little moments to kind of like step back and see what’s happening across the campus. Are incredible. Because the other day I had a student come to me, he’s like, oh, I’m doing this research on like micro batteries and this really specific area of research. And I’m like, I don’t know anything about that. However, I do know that, you know, Dr. So-and-so mentioned they were doing a project on that. Let me see if, let’s connect you with them, right? When I have an undergraduate student who- Oh my gosh, Dr. Komen, I got this internship opportunity. I’m so excited. And I’m like, oh, that’s great. Also, you need to connect with this other student who just got back from there. So they can give you kind of a lay of the land. So it’s, again, but it’s also ties back, I think, to relationship building. If you’re stepping back up the balcony just to look at like, this is a cool view, great. Now I know that’s a mess over there. Don’t touch it. And this is interesting over here, but I’ll leave it alone. I think you’re also missing that next opportunity.

Sean Murray [00:21:51] Yeah, I look forward now that I know that people like you are educating like the next generation of the workforce I’m looking forward to more people that are engaged and willing to make decisions right and having the I don’t know gumption the bravery right To help us to help us make the best decisions moving

Rachel Kohman [00:22:11] Yeah. I mean, I’m going to really hope that my first program, I’ve been with Missouri S&T just about five years. So we’ve really only had about one or two cohorts of these undergraduates that have graduated and are starting out in their fields. So far, I have not had any companies call me directly and say, what in the world did you do? These whippersnappers are messing up. That hasn’t happened yet. It is a possibility. Okay, I fully understand that. Um, but yeah, what’s actually very interesting is I’ve been able to see, cause I’ve had, you know, we’ve had students who’ve gone through like the whole four years of our programs. And what’s really cool is I checked in, like when we start working with them in their very first semester and there’s, I’ll give them like workshops and scenario based things where there’s not an exact answer. And for like an engineer or like a science minded student, Oh yeah, they are not comfortable and like, don’t tell me what to do. Tell me exactly what you’re looking for. I’m like. We don’t know. And it’s something silly. Like build the coolest Lego tower, but then I throw in a crazy like, but you also have to include paper mache. Like it’s, you know, a little bit wonky and they’re like, this isn’t real. And I’m like, but I need you to get more comfortable with ambiguity. And this is how we start to build that opportunity out. And then fast forward, they’re getting into like their senior capstone projects. And what I’m hearing from some of these students and some of like the industry partners are. Okay, these students were asking way different questions than we’ve seen before. They’re asking less about specifically, tell me what you need the function to be for exactly what you’re looking for, and said, who are we trying to serve here? What are the other things that are happening in the company? Where are some other opportunities that we can tie in? And they’re also kind of gaming the system in a few ways, like crime to look for. Where’s like these random boop holes that nobody else is looking at? So we have had to change some of our like student competitions later on because they’ve already figured out like the cheat code because they’re like, she didn’t say specifically this paper airplane competition had to be like a triangular airplane. You know what, if you smash a ball up and chuck it, it’s a much more specific direct thing and they’re winning these paper airplane competitions. Like sounds ridiculous, but at the same time, like, yes, we’re creating these kind of out-of-the-box stinkers who aren’t afraid to like, what’s the worst case with a paper airplane? Thank you. I don’t win it. What’s the worst case if I ask the question and it’s not exactly what the company was looking for? I learned something more. The company realized I’m willing to maybe ask that little bit of a risky question. So I think that’s really cool. And I’m hoping that it will continue to influence, you know, the next years of these up and coming professionals.

Sean Murray [00:24:42] This was a great way to wrap this up. We got hope for the future. We triggered Dan as a former engineer. This was the great, that was a great wrap question, right? Well, I mean, I have one.

Sean Murray [00:24:51] More question for you.

Rachel Kohman [00:24:52] Absolutely.

Dan Sharp [00:24:52] How do you tell an extrovert engineer from introvert engineer?

Rachel Kohman [00:24:55] Well, I have heard tell that those extraverted engineers will look at your shoes instead of their own. You got it.

Sean Murray [00:25:04] Awesome. Thank you so much for being with us.

Rachel Kohman [00:25:05] Thank you guys.