In this episode, AgilityInsights’ Trisha Hall joins Paul Gebel for a first-ever joint podcast for Product Momentum — here, with Trisha’s Illuminating Insights. Trisha leads the enterprise solutions and government contracting team at AgilityInsights, and Paul is a VP of Delivery at ITX as well as long-time host of Product Momentum. In this inspiring conversation between friends and colleagues, Paul and Trisha explore the deep connection between organizational agility and the delivery of business value. They also discuss the role AI can play to generate user insights that help product teams convert strategy to desired outcomes.
 
AgilityInsights’ Rebrand + Platform Evolution
As Trisha explains, AgilityInsights (formerly known as AgilityHealth) recently went through a rebrand that included an extensive evolution of their platform and managed services AgilityInsights is better positioned to help business leaders gain insights into the value their teams are delivering. “We can’t continue to create these spinning tornadoes of work inside of our information technology organizations,” Trisha adds. “We’re focused on how we can use the data we gather to deliver value to our client organizations.”
 
Not surprisingly, AI has found a role to play here.
 
Leveraging Data to Facilitate Conversation
Armed with more than 12 million data points in their team health radar alone, AgilityInsights is working with AI tools – embedded directly into their platform – harvesting this customer feedback to help business leaders understand where they need to lean in and which obstacles need to be removed so that their teams can continue to excel.
 
Importantly, a human remains in the decisionmaking loop. “It’s really about having that conversation with leaders about what is most valuable – not whose project is most important. Those are two very different things.”

ITX’s Product + Design Conference returns to Rochester, June 25-26. Interested in learning who will be keynoting? Find out here!

Podcast: Play in new window | Download

Sean Murray and Sean Flaherty [00:00:09] Hey, everyone, I’m Sean Murray and I’m Sean Flaherty. Welcome back to Product Momentum, a community of product people and a marketplace of ideas where leaders and learners come together to shape our way ahead. Our production team is the best in the industry, and we are dedicated to producing high quality content from thought leaders across the product development space. Check us out on your favorite listening platform or if you prefer, the video experience. You can find all our latest episodes on the Product Momentum YouTube channel. Let’s get after it!

Paul Gebel [00:00:48] Hey folks, and welcome to a special edition of Product Momentum and Illuminating Insights, a partner podcast by a friend of it is called Agility Insights. Tricia Hall and I share a conversation here about how user insights can inform leadership to deliver better results for clients. We talk about a lot and cover a range of our experiences with shared clients. Getting out into the networking space, into conferences, and really just being thoughtful about providing value at the right level. We then we we dive into a really, I think, important subject for every product manager and the ability to say no to some really good ideas. And how challenging but rewarding that can be. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with myself and Tricia Hall of Illuminating Insights. Let’s get after it.

Paul Gebel [00:01:39] Well, hello and welcome to a very special episode of both Product Momentum and Illuminating Insights, the first ever joint venture podcast, and I’m delighted to welcome Tricia Hall to our show. Tricia, do you mind introducing yourself for a minute? For our guests and let us know what you’re all about.

Trisha Hall [00:01:56] Oh, thank you so much, Paul. As Paul said, my name is Tricia Hall. I lead our enterprise solutions and government contracting team here at Agility Insights. I’ve been working here. I’m going to date myself since 2014. I’m part of our Omaha, Nebraska-based leadership team. I’ve been working with our customers and partners since I started here. I really work to build high performing teams and lead effective leadership teams as well. I love to coach individuals. I also am a certified genetics associate. So profiling organizations and help to really find the genius inside of individuals and teams and help them figure out how to work better together and build trust is one of the highlights of my time when I work with organizations. I also really am trying to figure out how we can help build better governments and help them work strategically better together and on the side. I do some work volunteering with boards here in my hometown in Omaha, helping to make our communities a better place to live. So that’s what I do in my spare time. I also happen to be a mom of two adult children and that’s really scary. I don’t have teenagers anymore. And I’ve got an amazing husband that’s been partner of mine for over 30 years. So that’s what I do in my spare time. Paul, how about you? Tell my audience members here at Illuminating Insights a little bit about you.

Paul Gebel [00:03:17] And be happy to. And you’re making the world a better place. Tricia. I am Paul Gebel. I’m the VP of Delivery here at ITX. We are a full service outsource product development firm. We specialize in user experience design and custom enterprise software development. Tricia, you and I met at the SAFE summit recently here in Washington, D.C., but I’m based in Rochester, New York, and I’ve been here at ITX going on nine years. I came up through the product to track a product owner, product manager, director of product, and made the move over to delivery Because I wanted to be more in touch with the business impact that our products deliver. I’m still very much a product guy at heart. I love fixing things and solving problems. But I also really appreciate the human element, the business element. I am on my way to becoming a certified coach as well. Not quite there yet, but yay for you to be happy to know you have that feather in your cap that might be picking your brain. After the podcast on that. Father of five. Couple teenagers, couple younger and active in the Rochester community here as well. I’m board member of an organization called Tech Rochester. Also volunteer with veterans organizations around town. As much as I can. So that’s me and what I’m what I’m trying to do in the world now.

Trisha Hall [00:04:47] So it’s always so fun to to meet and work with people like you and Paul. You and I, we have a common customer, and that’s how our organizations actually really started working together. We’ve got a common customer that we’ve both worked with for…well they were working with Agility Insights before I joined the organization, and I know you guys have been working with them for a long time as well. So that’s how we all ended up here at the table together. And then with our joint partner, it’s SAFE. Our world is big as it is, is very, very small.

Paul Gebel [00:05:15] I couldn’t have said it better. I think there is that the more you get out, the more you realize people are dealing with the same problems the world over. It’s just different flavors and variations and labels that we put on them. But people are just trying to help others out, help their family and help their careers grow, be better and learn more. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Trisha Hall [00:05:36] Absolutely, absolutely. When, you know, I think one of the things that really drew you and I into conversation is some of the problems that we’re trying to solve with our customers. And you had some great stories about this is really helping to align leaders and help them to really figure out how do how do we really help them verbalize in in, draw closer to their teams and really understand? How do we help our teams excel and how do we help our teams get better? And I’d I’d love to to really hear a little bit about your perspective there on what you’re doing around that, particularly around the product side, because you guys have got some great work that you’re doing there.

Paul Gebel [00:06:17] Yeah, I think there’s there’s really one word that captures all of it. There’s there’s variations on the theme, but it all comes down to value. I think the idea of value is, is kind of one of those words that gets washed out over time. You know, what does innovation mean anymore? You know, ask ten people what innovation means. You’ll get 11 answers. But I think what we try to do at ITX and with our clients in the problem space is define value, not just in the simple terms of increasing revenue and lowering expenses, but looking at real deep customer insights. And what I think, you know, you asked about leadership. And I think that connecting leadership to value is, is really the nexus where we find the most leverage, not leverage in the financial sense, but leverage in the sense of if we’re connected to the why, you know, what is the problem that our clients are trying to solve for their customers. And our teams are empowered to dig into those, those ideals, the things that make their users tick. Those are the things that are, you know, we can I don’t like the phrase fail fast, but we can learn fast. We can get iterations, and we can be on the same side of the table, solving the same problems, learning together, empowering our clients. And I think that that kind of leadership requires a lot of humility. So that’s the that’s the dimension that I think is often lost in the product space. A lot of talk goes into, you know, the the vanity metrics and the product market fit, all of which are very critical to success. But humility, I think, is the the secret ingredient where if you’re able to to run experiments and you’re able to learn alongside your customers, I think that’s where that’s where that leadership function comes in. If a leader is overly critical or expecting business outputs as opposed to customer outcomes, you’re going to get shortsighted and you’re going to get you might you might have short seasons of financial success, but ultimately the distance yourself from your users. And I think that whole relationship between leadership and experimentation, humility and learning fast is, is really where the the secret sauce lies. Yeah. I I’d love to ask you on on your perspective in that same vein, you know, Agility Insights has been on a journey. You’ve been discovering your own customers’ needs in really unique ways. And I know 2025 is a big year for the company. Can you share a bit of your journey? And maybe I’ll pose the question back to you in that light. What is what is leadership mean for the product of Agility Insights and the company culture there?

Trisha Hall [00:09:08] It really has been a journey. We just recently went through our rebrand. We announced at the end of 2024 our move from Agility Health to Agility Insights as a brand, really, because we’ve evolved our platform and our managed services really around how do we help organizations and leaders really gain insights into the value that they’re delivering, because we can’t just continue to create these spinning tornadoes of work inside of our information technology organizations. It’s really how are we delivering value to the organization overall, and how are we taking the work that the businesses are asking for, and how are we taking that strategy that the organization is really defining? Because we spend a lot of time and a lot of money bringing together, you know, leadership teams and and teams overall into is big, you know, PI planning events or even strategy planning events and saying, hey, what is it that we’re going to deliver? What is it that we are going to do as an organization? What’s the strategy that we want to achieve when we do these huge events and we say, here’s our Northstar, here’s what we’re going to do, but then how do we actually help the teams tie the work that they’re doing to that strategy that we want to achieve?

Trisha Hall [00:10:25] A lot of times there’s this really big disconnect because we have these huge meetings and we talk about these fantastic things, and then everybody goes back to work. And how are we tying the work to the strategy or the outcomes that we want to achieve. So we spend a lot of time really in 24 and into 25, really thinking about and working through How do we help organizations do that? So they do a lot of investment into our platform. And then thinking about how we can help organizations really visualize taking this strategy and tying the strategy and the outcomes to the outputs and the deliverables that organizations are really striving to do. And then really looking at how do we put the value around that? So that’s really what we’ve done a lot of our work around. And and so it’s then bringing the insights into that. So how can we take and create those massive walls and then a digital twin and then report on the value that organizations are delivering on. So we’ve been doing a lot of work around that, building AI elements into our Agility Insights platform so that on a Monday morning, a leader can come in and get a report saying, hey, here’s here’s where you’re doing okay, here’s where you need to lean in as a leader, because these are the obstacles that your teams are facing because they can’t really deliver until you help remove this obstacle. And it’s for your business teams as well as your technology teams, because we have to have both sides of the coin moving forward at the same time or something’s going to get missed. So it’s really about having that conversation with leaders about how do we help you deliver value, and how do we help you understand what value should be delivered first so that you can actually achieve the strategy of your organization? So it’s really having this conversations about what is most valuable, not who’s projects is most important. And those are actually two different things. And so it’s helping organizations learn how to have those conversations. Because I think we’ve all been there when there’s been a leader who was the drive by, goes to their favorite person and says, hey, can you do the side project for me? I know it’s going to take some time, and I know you’ve got these other priorities. But this is important to me.

Paul Gebel [00:12:47] Yeah.

Trisha Hall [00:12:48] But it’s helping. Helping us all to break those patterns and figure out how do we how do we help all of us think about what’s valuable and what’s going to provide value to the organization and get that prioritization done in the right way?

Paul Gebel [00:13:03] Yeah, really well said.

Trisha Hall [00:13:05] And then those habits are, you know, harder to break sometimes than we want them to be. But you know, we’re all it takes practice.

Paul Gebel [00:13:14] Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, as a user of Agility Insights for many years now on that common client of ours, I’ve seen the outcomes that you’re describing in living color, literally, because the dashboards are quite colorful, but also because it’s a really compelling picture that shows, you know, that that highest paid person’s opinion, that hippo walks into the room and says, this is my pet project. I want this done. Now you can really make really well, data informed decisions about the tradeoffs that come. You can see the amount of buying in the team has, the confidence that they feel around leadership. And I think that democratization of the feedback loop where, you know, Agility Insights does a great job of leveling up everybody’s voice. The quieter voices tend to fall to the bottom, but sometimes they have the most important things to say in the room. And I think it does a really good job of helping us have those those tough conversations, removing the emotion from them, showing them, you know, business outcomes. And I would say one sidebar would be, I think we’ve begun over indexing on outcomes at the expense of outputs. A lot of people, when they talk about outcomes and outputs, they they trivialize outputs as if they’re not as important or noble. But I think business outputs have just as much of a say in the success of a product or an organization as as the user outcomes. And a lot of times, they can be the first alarm that starts sounding when when things are going wrong. Sometimes the outcomes aren’t apparent until long after the train is off the track. So I think there’s a lot to be said for those kinds of conversations that you alluded to about value and driving towards consensus and alignment to deliver that on time and on budget.

Trisha Hall [00:15:08] Well, we got all excited about outcomes and OKRs because it was a great way to really verbalize and organize in and come up with a common language and one. Don’t get me wrong, I love that we all have a common language. But the outcomes and OKRs…those are the strategy. The outputs are the execution. We have to have both of them so that we can really achieve what it is we want to achieve. And if we if we’ve got one without the other, if we’re just executing and executing and executing, what are we executing towards?

Paul Gebel [00:15:39] Exactly.

Trisha Hall [00:15:41] If we just have outcomes and we just have strategy. How are we getting anything done? So we have to have both. And we have to have both in and balance and in concert so that we can get value.

Paul Gebel [00:15:55] Yeah, I think that that is a really great synergy of how do you connect the why, but also the how and the what. And the team needs to see the full stack of where, where the value prop is, but also the processes that we’re following to execute.

Trisha Hall [00:16:12] And that’s why these visual walls, whether they be physical or digital, are so valuable, because then anybody can see what is it that we are really working towards and what’s most important. And, you know, you can really have those conversations when something comes up because it will it doesn’t matter what industry you’re in, something’s going to change. Either. There’s going to be a new regulation that comes into play and there’s going to be a business need that changes. There’s going to be some sort of change in hierarchy, whether it’s going to be like in the case of our government, we’ve we’ve got a new government that’s changing with it, with our presidential change or, you know, there’s going to be a new president that comes into a company because the CEO retires. Things are going to change. So then how do we change and how do we reprioritize in a way that makes sense and disrupts things as little as possible? This disruption will happen.

Paul Gebel [00:17:10] I agreed.

Trisha Hall [00:17:11] Now. Yeah. So what’s the next best thing that ITX is working on? Because I know you guys are working on a lot.

Paul Gebel [00:17:22] It is a lot. And I think the the thing that we’re excited to introduce, we’ve been carefully observing the AI trends and I think as everyone else has, I think the the offering that we’re excited to bring to market in 25. Is it truly AI enabled team? And we don’t just mean, you know, slapping the AI label on it. What we want to bring is, is a really thoughtful. We work with clients who are in highly regulated industries, so just throwing everything into even a walled garden of an LLM isn’t always available. So we’ve been really thoughtfully crafting a rollout that allows a team to see the productivity gains that everybody is enjoying. I think, you know, the the do more with less that AI offers is is kind of a universal. But what we’ve been trying to bring is, is a really carefully curated voice in this space. We think that a lot of the AI enablement is going to be focused around keeping a human in a loop. That is hands down my favorite phrase in any a conversation. We don’t want to let anything go out the door that doesn’t have a an experience driven, you know, a UX designer keeping eyeballs on something and not just letting generative AI draft all of our wireframes, or taking the the copy paste of ChatGPT and slapping it into content. I think those kinds of things were a flash in the pan a couple of years ago when when ChatGPT turned the world upside down.

Paul Gebel [00:19:09] But as we’re rolling it out, we really want to share the value gains, share the value efficiencies, but also treat the treat the AI conversation as a as a wisdom force multiplier as opposed to just an intelligent agent. And I think that definitely not the first to market. And that’s by design. We didn’t want to damage the relationships and the trust that our clients have built up in us. And if we had, you know, jumped on the bleeding edge of that bandwagon, I think it could have imposed some risk that we just weren’t comfortable passing along. So as we’re rolling out that offering, I think it’s it’s going to be human first. It’s going to be team empowering and it’s going to become, you know, it’s going to allow us to become even more obsessed with the user than than we already are. We want we want to help minimize the distraction of process, cut through the signal to noise, and and deliver results faster.

Paul Gebel [00:20:11] So I think the the AI enabled teams that we’ve been test piloting for the past couple of months have really shown some promising results. And I think, you know, as much as this might sound dated in 2025, just releasing an offering like this, I think it speaks to the due diligence, the experimentation, the thoughtfulness. We didn’t want to be first on on the bandwagon and deliver a subpar result. So I think we’ve taken a lot of lessons learned in what we’re bringing to bear on our teams is really been showing some really promising gains that we’re able to share that value pass along to our clients. So that’s been really, really fun to to be a part of that journey and see how it’s been played out. Going from an idea on a whiteboard into in the hands of our developers and designers and product managers passing it along to our clients.

Trisha Hall [00:21:09] That sounds so exciting. I’m I’m still at the stage where when you say AI-enabled team, I still see some of the Hollywood versions of of AI-enabled bots going in and helping with people and stuff. So I need to get past that in my own head. But I’ve been at some conferences recently where they have some of the and I may I enable boxes, if you will, that that have, you know like they they show people and they They’ve got an image, if you will, of of a person that that is the front of the eye. So it’s come so far. Yeah. For the last 18 months. So that’s very exciting for you guys.

Paul Gebel [00:21:50] Yeah. We’re we’re very proud of the due diligence that we’ve taken to to craft it in a way that’s minimizing risk. That’s allowing us to play even in higher, highly regulated spaces. And I think it’s been it’s been a journey. But I think we’re we’re excited to to share it with the world.

Paul Gebel [00:22:11] I I’d love to ask you a bit about the insights that you’ve been gaining, the Agility Insights besides the, the the new year, new you as a as a firm, you’ve also been breaking into new markets and, and expanding on the platform. And I’d imagine that’s closely tied to customer feedback that you’ve been sharing and learning from could you, you know, maybe paint a picture for us of some of the conversations that led to the design and, and brand and technology platform changes that you guys have been making over the past few months?

Trisha Hall [00:22:46] Sure, sure. Customers are always asking things like, how do we compare? What more can you tell us? How do we know what’s next for our teams? And because because we’ve been working with teams in this way for over a decade. I mean, we did our first team health assessments and that our common client was actually one of our beta customers back in 2013. So we’ve been using this platform commercially since 2014. So for over a decade. So our database of paid customer data. So this isn’t people that have gone out and played on kiosks or anything like that. So this is really true. Really good customer data was over 12 million data points just on our team health radar alone. That was our flagship assessment that we started with years and years ago. And so with that, and because we have both quantitative and qualitative data, and we’ve got a lot of understanding of based on based on that, how can you do predictive analytics in those types of things. We actually can use those data points to say, now that we’ve got a lot more ability, we can actually say based on your data, using some of the AI that we now have built into the platform, we can help predict which teams are going to excel and improve in which teams need help. We can help you understand where to lean in and help teams, which obstacles need to be removed for teams first, so that they can continue to excel and accelerate from a performance perspective. Because at the end of the day, we all are looking for teams that can produce higher quality work faster.

Paul Gebel [00:24:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Trisha Hall [00:24:32] Because if we can help remove those obstacles, you don’t have to bring in more teams. We can actually remove the right obstacles and help our teams produce more work at a higher rate with better quality. Without adding people, without adding teams. Because our teams are actually able to produce at that optimum rate. We don’t want them to overproduce because then it’s going to be work that’s not at the quality that they want, and it’s also not going to be work that’s valuable. So we want to find that that sweet spot where they’re producing, that’s at a rate at which we can consume it, because it doesn’t matter if it can’t be released because there’s other, you know, testing and all of that. That has to happen. And we also want it to be high quality work that doesn’t have a lot of bugs. So we’re able to start to use all of those data points to be able to predict where do we need to lean in and remove obstacles? Which teams need the most help? Which teams can be your dojo teams or teaching teams so that you can really optimize the level of work in your teams?

Trisha Hall [00:25:43] We also have enough data to help you write outcomes, deliverables, and projects. So we have the Ask Agility AI feature where you can say, but I’m going to use something that I worked on with a customer. They needed to build a shipyard instead of five years into. They need to build it to two. So we went in to the Ask Agility AI and gave it that actual problem, and it came out with the outcome and then the deliverables and the projects that needed. And it gave ideas on all of that. And so then you can go and you can continue to tweak that plan and say, okay, I want it to be shorter. I want it to be smarter. I need different KPIs, I need different key results that you can use now that type of AI want the platform to be able to really refine. How do we actually write not only our outcomes and OKRs and the deliverables and the projects that go with it, so that we can then actually get better at this? Because one of the problems that we need to really help solve is consistently writing outcomes, projects and deliverables so that we can start to really work on them. How do we refine them? But then the next one is then what are the obstacles that are coming and keeping us from getting those things done? So that’s the type of AI that we’ve been able to write into our Agility Insights platform, because customer.

Paul Gebel [00:27:13] Interesting.

Trisha Hall [00:27:14] Customers are continually asking us, how do we know what’s tied together? How do we know where to go next? We have all this data. What do we do with it?

Paul Gebel [00:27:24] You said something that I want to key in on that I think is the linchpin to the whole idea that you’re referencing. And that’s you have a backlog of outcomes that you’re aligning towards. And whether it’s AI or another decision making framework, you need to know which of these things is aligned towards the vision and which which things do you need to say no to keeping that balance of usable, feasible, viable, viable really only happens when you know which things you need to to say no to. And that’s that’s the product managers most powerful tool in their toolbox. You know, the ability to say no because everybody has a great idea. Designers make great designs. Engineers have wonderful solutions. All of these things are not inherently bad ideas. But when you don’t prioritize them, you don’t know which which good ideas to say no to that. That’s when you start to see the feature below. The drift from customer success. You start to see things being released with poor quality Because it gets rushed, because everything’s jammed in. That’s a really powerful story told about being able to remove the emotion from the conversation. Give a picture of the vision that you’re aligning to, and hope to filter out which of these good ideas are not aligned to the greater good. Which of these which of these things, though good ideas in and of themselves are not going to get done in this release, because we need to focus on the things that are going to be aligning. He kind of buried the lead there, and I wanted to call it out because I think that’s that is the that is the most powerful tool in a product management toolbox. The word no.

Trisha Hall [00:29:02] And it’s not perfect. Yeah. It still needs it still needs people. I don’t I don’t want anyone to think that what’s built into our, into our platform is going to take the place of people because we still need to make the final decisions. But it gives us the data to help us understand and and gives us, gives us sometimes the words in some cases to be able to say, wait a minute, help us figure out and then say, okay, here, here are the the two scenarios, which is going to give us the most valuable outcome.

Paul Gebel [00:29:43] Yeah. And sometimes when we bring our own biases to the table, it’s hard to see past our own personal preferences or things that we’re invested in where sunk cost fallacy or, you know, other other cognitive biases start to creep in that we, by definition, can’t see our own biases that we we bring to the table. Oh, Tricia. Time flies when you’re having fun. We just have time for another question or comment or two. And I thought to wrap up, I would borrow one of the one of the questions that you shared when we were getting ready for the show. I’m curious to know what you’d say if I asked, what does success look like when companies are working well and teams are happy.

Trisha Hall [00:30:25] Success. What does success look like when companies are working well and teams are happy? I would say from my perspective, when I walk into a customer, the and success and they’re successful, there’s a there’s an energy that you cannot replace. And people are happy. And people are willing to go the extra mile. And they do so with joy. They may not always they may not always verbalize it, but they do so with joy because they know that that’s the right thing to do. And it’s it’s an intangible feeling in some of our customers. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that.

Paul Gebel [00:31:07] No, I, I to borrow a famous quote from a Supreme Court justice, it’s kind of you know, it when you see it. It’s it is hard to define. But I think there’s those teams. You could you could lean on some of the tired tropes, like they they work late and they get pizza party after. And those are those are fine and all well and good, but I think you’ll see it. I love that you use the word joy. I’m having trouble not using the same word, because I do think that that is an aspect that I’ve heard. We’ve spoken to a product leader named Michael Sacca, who is very much in the in the space of finding joy in product. Others have spoken about it, and I think it’s a really powerful concept. I think I’ll go a slightly different direction. I’m not going to try to to to top what you what you shared, because I agree with everything you said. I think one aspect that I would flavor it with slightly is that there is a, an environment of continuous learning teams that are successful and happy. I would say, you know, to to an organization, I’ve seen where teams are successful and and happy. There’s an there’s an atmosphere of of learning where learning stops. I think joy stops. You start. You stop getting curious. You stop. Remembering that there’s. There’s human on the other end of your product that you’re building. And then it’s not even about the product. It’s about the problem that the product solves. And I think when teams don’t make time for learning, development and growth, that’s one of those early warning alarm bells that should start going off. If an organization doesn’t make room for that, then there’s probably not much room for joy anywhere else either. So I think that that would be my take on it. Yeah. So Tricia, I, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today and I hope we get a chance to do this again. It’s been a blast getting a peek into the company culture at Agility Insights, and hearing about the success that you guys have enjoyed. I’m really excited to share this with both of our audiences and and see where this might take us.

Trisha Hall [00:33:13] Same, Paul. Same. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to see you again. Yeah, it’s. I can’t believe it’s been a couple months since I saw you. But, you know, maybe we make this an annual thing. Who knows?

Paul Gebel [00:33:24] Or more frequent. It’s been. It’s been a great conversation. And I’m sure people are going to get value from from hearing these perspectives. So I’m, I’m happy to make the time. And I’m looking forward to doing this again soon.

Trisha Hall [00:33:36] Sounds great. So good to see you again, Paul. Thank you for having us on your podcast, and I can’t wait for our Illuminating Insights podcast audience to hear your insights as well.

Paul Gebel [00:33:46] Likewise. Cheers.

Trisha Hall [00:33:48] Take care. Bye.

Paul Gebel [00:33:54] Well, that’s it for today. In line with our goals of transparency and listening. We really want to hear from you. Sean and I are committed to reading every piece of feedback that we get, so please leave a comment or a rating wherever you’re listening to this podcast. Not only does it help us continue to improve, but it also helps the show climb up the rankings so that we can help other listeners move, touch, and inspire the world just like you’re doing. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next episode.