Mike Belsito has spent years at the center of the product management community. As the founder of Product Collective, a leader at Mind the Product, and now Head of Product Evangelism at Pendo, Mike has built a career around learning from product professionals and sharing those insights with the broader industry.

In this episode of Product Momentum, Mike joins Sean and Dan for a discussion that is absolutely top of mind for today’s product leaders today: while artificial intelligence is transforming how products are built, timeless skills such as curiosity, judgment, and taste remain essential. In fact, he argues, these capabilities will become even more valuable as technology accelerates the pace of product development.

Navigating AI Through Human-Centered Product Skills

In doing research for a new book, Mike engaged many product leaders who had experienced previous periods of technological disruption – e.g., the rise of the internet, telecommunications, and mobile computing. Now dealing with AI-driven opportunities and uncertainties, many leaders point to the same enduring qualities that helped them and their teams adapt during earlier transitions.

Rather than focusing solely on new technologies, they emphasized the importance of human-centered skills that guide decision-making and product strategy. “It’s kind of relying on the same timeless characteristics that we’ve always thought were important,” Mike says. “And even today, we still think are important, which are things like curiosity, judgment, taste.”

Balancing Output and Outcomes

Our conversation with Mike also explored a growing tension within product organizations – a theme also covered in recent Product Momentum episodes. As AI enables teams to create more content, code, and functionality faster than ever before, Mike cautions against using increased output” as a measure of success.

Product teams have spent years shifting their focus from user satisfaction to delivery metrics to business outcomes, Mike continues. “That mindset remains critical, even as AI changes workflows. But how do we make sure that it’s not just about the output – that we’re actually building the right things?” For product managers, designers, and engineers, the challenge is ensuring that speed does not come at the expense of delivering business value.

Curiosity as a Practiced Skill

Among Mike’s more surprising research discoveries was how often leaders highlighted curiosity as a skill that can be developed intentionally. Rather than viewing curiosity as an innate personality trait, many described it as a practice that strengthens through deliberate effort. It’s an insight that brings important implications for today’s product teams.

Learning, questioning assumptions, and seeking new perspectives become competitive advantages in times like these when the technology landscape evolves so quickly, Mike adds. “I wasn’t thinking of curiosity as a practice or as a muscle to be flexed.”

As AI continues to reshape product development, Mike offers a practical perspective for product leaders. Technology will continue to evolve, he says, but the ability to ask thoughtful questions, exercise sound judgment, and focus on meaningful outcomes remains fundamental. Those timeless capabilities may ultimately determine which teams are best equipped to thrive in an increasingly AI-driven future.

• [03:45[ What is product evangelism? Being Pendo’s Head of Product Evangelism is a new role for me, one that I’ve just stepped into weeks ago. Pendo has a unique point of view on how it helps product people, and it does that through its software, and now it’s all kind of software.
• [06:25] Mike’s new book project — the origin story. I wasn’t planning on ever writing a book again. The publisher [Wiley] reached out kind of out of the blue and told me ‘we think you have a pretty unique point of view.’
• [09:41] What’s exciting you right now? What’s keeping you up at night? Essential questions Mike poses to every product leader he speaks with, in every conversation.
• [14:44] Rewarding outcomes over outputs. Many product folks came up in a world where we all celebrated outputs. Like, how much did we deliver this week? But then it came to a point where we said, ‘hey, it actually shouldn’t be about outputs…it should be about outcomes. And it’s even beyond outcomes for your customers — it’s about outcomes for businesses too.
• [17:29] Creating the right thing > Creating for creating’s sake. We have to remember that it’s not just about creating for creating sake, it’s like making sure we’re creating the right thing.
• [20:47] Curiosity, taste, and judgment. We used to believe that these were innate personality traits. But lately, as I have conducted research for my upcoming book, I am learning from other product leaders that these are muscles that can be strengthened, and they are muscles we must flex regularly.

Want to hear more from Mike Belsito? Be sure to join us as he emcees the 2026 ITX Product + Design Conference, June 24 & 25 in Rochester, NY – for the fifth consecutive year!

“I’m honored to return as emcee for the fifth year in a row. This event continues to stand out because of the incredible community it brings together and the energy in the room each time we gather. I’m proud to be part of something that keeps growing in impact and connection.” – Mike Belsito

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Sean Murray [00:00:11] Mike, we’ve been hanging out with you for years, right? In your role as the founder of the Product Collective and the ultimate show runner of the industry conferences. And now you’ve taken on this new role. So first, you are now the head product evangelist at Pendo. Yeah. What is product evangelism? And how are you crushing it at Pendo?

Mike Belsito [00:00:35] Yes, so head of product evangelism at Pendo. And that is a new role for me, one that I’ve just stepped into weeks ago. So I might have to tell you a year from now what that really means, but I will say what it kind of comes down to is like Pendo has a unique point of view on how it helps product people. There’s all sorts of ways that they’re helping product people, what product evangel is all about is how we can do that. On the road, in different ways that’s not through the soft-

Dan Sharp [00:01:05] I would love to just hear what kind of prompted that idea that you wanted to actually sit down and start writing a book. If you imagine maybe find something that’s harder than organizing a conference.

Mike Belsito [00:01:14] Well, I will, I guess I’ll start by saying I wasn’t planning on ever writing a book again. I guess, I should say again, cause I did, I wrote a book that was not even product related over a decade ago. And what happened is the publisher Wiley reached out kind of out of the blue. We think you have a pretty unique point of view. You’ve helped lead two product communities with product collective and mind the product. And you’ve been at the center of product being a person that product leaders turn to and confide in and. That’s a pretty unique perspective that you have. But the last few customer conversation, I guess it was a customer conversation. Last few product leader conversations I had, there are two questions I try to ask that are common no matter what conversation I have, which is what is exciting you the most right now and what’s keeping you up at night? And the thing that I noticed was that in those conversations, I got the same answer almost across the board to both questions. Which was this AI everything world that we’re living in right now. On one hand, it’s super exciting. We could do things now that we could never do before, and we’re creating faster than ever. But on the other hand, this is what’s keeping me up at night.

Sean Murray [00:02:26] What does this mean for my role? I think that that’s where we’re getting into this, you know, people see the output, but they don’t, they’re not taking the time to assess quality.

Mike Belsito [00:02:35] 100%, there’s a balance to it is the reality of it, right? And I think it’s like, we can, I definitely believe in trying to get to a point where we’re creating much faster than before, but we have to make sure we’re using the inputs that we have too. I do think like this AI everything world we’re in now lets us access and do something with the data sooner, but we can’t forget about that part. Like we have remember that like, It’s not just about creating for creating’s sake, it’s like, it is creating the right thing.

Sean Murray [00:03:15] All right, we are here live with Mike Belsito. Mike, we’ve been hanging out with you for years, right? In your role as the founder of the Product Collective and the ultimate show runner of the industry conferences. And now you’ve taken on this new role. You’re writing a new book and you’re coming back to our product and design conference. So we’re really excited that you’re here with us live today. So first, you are now the head product evangelist at Pendo. Yeah. What is… Product evangelism. And how are you crushing it at Pendo?

Mike Belsito [00:03:45] Well, first of all, thank you for having me back. And it’s been awesome being here and hanging out with you guys these last few years. Yeah, it’s a been a few years now, so that part’s really cool. Yes, so head of product evangelism at Pendo, and that is a new role for me, one that I’ve just stepped into weeks ago. So I might have to tell you a year from now what that really means, but I will say what it kind of comes down to is like Pendo has a unique point of view on how it helps product people, and it does that through its software, and now it’s all kind of software. It used to be just like, hey, we help software companies through analytics, but now there’s agent analytics, there’s all sorts of ways that they’re helping product people. What product evangelism is all about is how we can do that on the road in different ways. That’s not through the software. So really what that means is being able to talk about the topics that we care about, whether it be on podcasts like this. At conferences, at events. So that’s fun for me, because as you know, I love being at conferences and events. And so, yeah, it’s very fitting. What it means is I’ll be producing a lot more content. So I had a podcast in the past, Rocketship.fm, produced almost 700 episodes from that. I’m excited that very soon, maybe by the time we air this, who the heck knows, there’ll be a new show that I’ll bring to life for Pendo. And so I think you could expect… More content from me and more conversations from me.

Sean Murray [00:05:17] Seems like you’re going to be like permanently in like user discovery mode.

Mike Belsito [00:05:21] I think that’s the part that I’ve always loved about what I did, even from the early days at Product Collective is like, yeah, I love, you know, the conferences were especially special because we’re bringing people to us, but it was the fact that we could be in the same room with product people, learning from them, especially because like working remote like I do, and I have worked remote the last 10 years, most of my days I’m in my attic in Lakewood, Ohio, and I see nobody, no human beings except on Zoom. So anytime I could be with product people, I love that. So at a conferences, I loved that. But yeah, now like just being, I don’t even say on the road, even if it’s just like one-on-one conversations with product leaders, like it’s what can I learn from product leaders that I can then take back and share with the team at Pendo and mind the product and help all of us grow. Like that’s part of the role.

Dan Sharp [00:06:11] So, I mean, user research, you’re also writing a book. I would love to just hear, you know, what kind of prompted that idea that you wanted to actually sit down and start writing a books, you can actually maybe find something that’s harder than organizing a conference.

Mike Belsito [00:06:25] Well, I guess I’ll start by saying, I wasn’t planning on ever writing a book again. I guess, I should say again, because I wrote a book that was not even product related over a decade ago. And what happened is the publisher Wiley reached out kind of out of the blue. In fact, when they reached out, I’m like, is this even a legit email? Is this one of these phishing emails or scam emails or are they selling me something? And when I took the call with the acquisitions editor that had reached out. He’s like, no, no. Like we think you have a pretty unique point of view. You’ve helped lead two product communities with Product Collective and Mind the Product, and you’ve been at the center of product, being a person that product leaders turn to and confide in. And that’s a pretty, unique perspective that you have. And it made me think, because sometimes it’s like, it’s easy to sort of forget that that is what I’ve been doing, you know? Like, for me, these are friends now. Like, it’s the people that I’m texting, and I’m not thinking of it as like, Oh, a product leader is confiding in me. It’s just, these are people I’m friends with and have good conversations with. But as I thought about it, I’m like, I guess that is a pretty unique point of view. Like there aren’t that many people that I guess could say the same thing where they’re in those conversations and not just like at conferences. It’s like, it’s not so much what’s happening on the stage, it is actually what’s happening like backstage in the green rooms where people are like, oh, you liked my talk, thanks. But here’s what I really think, you know? Like. Hearing those types of conversations, like having a pulse like that is, I guess it is unique. And so when Wiley reached out about that, and they said, like, we think you have the unique perspective, would you be open to writing a book? My first inclination was to say no, because I’m like, I will admit going from, you know, working at a three-person independent company, like we were with Product Collective, where every day, my day started by just, you know. Before I open the laptop, I’m like, where can I make the biggest impact today? And then I open up the laptop and I do my best to make that impact. So then working at a company like Pendo, it’s nearly a thousand team members. I don’t remember the exact number, it changes every day with people coming and going, but there’s a lot of people within the company. And so for me, being able to, I guess, adjust to going to just working on a three-person team to a much larger organization, it’s an adjustment for me personally. You know, so I’m like. I’m still figuring out this adjustment. Am I even doing this right? Like it made me feel like how I felt when I first got into product. I was questioning myself a lot and like, am I even this right, but kind of pause before saying no and reminded myself that like, you know, opportunities like this don’t come around too often. And I have friends that have been fighting for book deals and you know trying to get an agent’s attention, trying to shop a manuscript that they have. And I’m like, if this is an opportunity that’s coming up. Maybe I should do the hard thing and actually try to make something out of this. Then, and if it can help product people too, like who am I to say, like, oh, this sounds too hard. I shouldn’t do it. So I pushed myself to say yes. And, but then the trick was, they’re like, well, what would you write about? And I’m like, what?

Mike Belsito [00:09:35] I knew that ain’t knew that question.

Sean Murray [00:09:37] I just made the first big decision, which is saying yes, like I can’t get it

Mike Belsito [00:09:41] Exactly, and so the thing that came to mind immediately was the last several conversations that I was having with product leaders. So all the time, I try to have regular conversations with product leads, and I don’t even just mean the people that are speaking on our stages or that are appearing on the podcast, just people that just doing the work. I feel like it’s important for me to stay as closely connected to people that are actually doing the as I can so that I can help. Build the great conferences or produce good content. And so like maybe in the product, we’d be thinking of that as like a customer interview, but that’s not how I think about it. But the last few customer conversation, I guess it was a customer conversation. Last few product leader conversations I had, there are two questions I try to ask that are common no matter what conversation I have, which is what is exciting you the most right now and what’s keeping you up at night? And the thing that I noticed was that in those conversations… I got the same answer almost across the board to both questions, which was this AI everything world that we’re living in right now. On one hand, it’s super exciting. We could do things now that we could never do before and we’re creating faster than ever. But on the other hand, this is what’s keeping me up at night, like what does this mean for my role? Am I going to be automated out of the picture? Like these are the conversations I was having. And so I said to Wiley, like, maybe I can write about this shift that’s happening. This AI everything shift. And they thought that that was a really good idea. So I started researching on that, which research just meant more conversations with product leaders. And that’s when I quickly realized I could never write that book because the whole process of writing, you know, this, Wiley reached out to me last summer, so summer 2026, no, summer’s 2025, the manuscript will be due August, 2026. The book, if all goes well, on the publishing side would be released February, 2027. So conversations I’m having at the middle of 2025, I have to predict what the world is gonna look like in February, 27. Just like, I was gonna say, just to be very upfront with y’all, I do not know what the word is gonna. Like what we were talking about as AI in 2025 might seem so elementary in early 2027, like. Well, we have achieved AGI by then. Like, who the heck knows? I don’t know. So I knew I couldn’t write an AI book. And I probably frankly wouldn’t be the right person to write the AI book, but when I was also having those conversations with product people, what they were saying is like, you know, Mike, and some of them are a little older than me, and they’re like, Mike I remember being in product when the internet was just becoming popular. Or certainly like, and I remember working during the introduction of mobile, where we went from everything on a laptop, to now everything on the device, a computer that we keep in our pocket. And what they had told me was like, look, how product people evolved in those periods of massive change. It’s kind of relying on the same timeless characteristics that we’ve always thought were important. And even today, we still think are important, which are things like curiosity, judgment, taste, it’s things that like we might consider these like soft skills now. And we might even think that like, oh, in this AI everything world, like it’s more important to concentrate on the tech aspect of it. But I actually think it’s important than ever, especially when AI can help us create more than ever that those things become even more important because we need to make sure we’re creating the right thing. So that’s kind of what the book is all about. It’s focusing not so much on, I mean, I am trying to acknowledge this AI world we’re living in, but it’s less about the AI. It’s more about the timeless core characteristics that can help product people evolve in this AI everything world, but I would argue in any kind of shift that we’re going to experience.

Sean Murray [00:13:42] I think you’re uniquely positioned to write something like that because you’ve got the perspective of, Hey, we had these two, we have these two events that we can look back on in history, but also you do get to go all over the world now. Right. And collect this feedback from people. So you are going to get a lot of different perspectives to kind of apply to those two events and see like, Hey what can we maybe predict? But I, I I’m wondering what else besides we know AI core product skills. Those are the two things that you’re mentioning right now. What else are you hearing from the field, maybe internationally or even here at home? Like what are the other things that are driving people kind of crazy right now? We know that those two big topics, like we’ve been talking about core product skills ever since we had our Teresa Torres interview and we feel like we are contractually obligated to talk about AI in every podcast. So yeah, we’ve checked that box, right? What else are you hearing people being really concerned about or like really excited about right now?

Mike Belsito [00:14:44] Well, I think this is, I mean, it is related to AI, but it’s not necessarily AI, like it’s not only about AI, but it just that like, we’re in this world where now people are rewarded almost for output. Like, I’m here, you know, there’s like this concept of token maxing, where it’s like, oh, we’re, how much can we actually use this? Top of the leaderboard, right? Yeah, exactly, like companies, and I believe it, like, hey, there is a reason to show a leaderboard Like, oh, who’s used the most quad tokens this month? Yeah, let’s cheer them on. But the thing is, like, we also came up in this world where we were all told that, like we should, actually, at first, we all celebrated output. It’s like, how much, you know, how much did we deliver this week? Great, we delivered this much, can we deliver a little more software next week, a little bit more software the next week? But then it came to a point where we got all the product people on board like, hey, actually shouldn’t be about output, should be about outcomes. And I actually think more recently, Matt LeMay, a friend of mine, like he’s been trumpeting. It’s beyond outcomes though, beyond outcomes for your customers. It’s also impacts, gotta be impact for your company too. But now we’re talking about token maxing. So now we are like celebrating output again. And I’m at this like, for me personally, it was so like the conversations I’ve had with people, like they’re like, but wait, are we cool with output now? Like, how do we make sure that it’s not just about the output, that it is like we’re building the right things? And honestly, I feel conflicted about that because do I believe that we should figure out ways to be using AI and integrating it into our process as much as we can? I do, but also I don’t necessarily believe that just by measuring the amount of tokens we’re using, like that’s the right thing to do either. Like I don’t wanna forget about the outcomes either. So it’s hard, you asked the question like, Beyond AI. That is more of an outcomes versus output conversation, but it is built on top of AI. It’s kind of hard to answer without it.

Sean Murray [00:16:42] And we see some of that live here. So like, you know, I have a title and I’ve been in this game for a while, but like somebody came to me recently with like, Hey, do we need to write user stories anymore because look at what I just put together with this prompt. And it’s like, look at this. There’s like eight pages. There’s eight pages of content here. And my question was like, well, is it good?

Mike Belsito [00:17:04] Right. Is it the right thing?

Sean Murray [00:17:06] And the, I cut kind of a blank stare back and the answer was like, yeah, but there’s a lot of it, right? And I was like you’re coming to me, right. With, you know, my reputation and my title and we work for the same company. Would you put this in front of a client? Now I think that that’s where we’re getting into this, you know, people see the output, but they don’t, they’re not taking the time to assess quality.

Mike Belsito [00:17:29] A hundred percent, there’s a balance to it is the reality of it. Right. And I think it’s like, we can, I do, I definitely believe in trying to get to a point where we’re creating much faster than before. Um, but we have to make sure we’re, creating like using the inputs that we have too, like that’s the, my employer, that’s the reason Pendo exists, right? Like Pendo has all this data that companies can use and now data about the agents, even that they’re deploying, which is that’s the whole point of like, it’s now isn’t just the point of accessing the data, but it’s then doing something with that data. So I do think like this AI everything world we’re in now lets us access and do something with the data sooner, but we can’t forget about that part. Like we have to remember that like, it’s not just about creating for creating sake, it’s like, it is creating the right thing. And how do we make sure that we’re always doing what we can to create the right things? Now we can experiment. Faster than ever before too. So I think that’s great. Like we can, I’m all for creating, but then making sure that we can validate what it is that we actually created. And I would even say like, even before you get to the point where you’re creating, like take that extra step to use whatever data you can, quantitative or qualitative, and like actually figure out is this the right thing first. Which doesn’t, it doesn’t mean you have to go through all the hoops you went through before this, you know, super hyper speed world that we’re living in right now. Yeah. But I still think that part’s important.

Dan Sharp [00:18:56] It seems like, yeah, there, there’s an easy trap too, right? Like, oh, I can type like any thought into, uh, in an agent, into a GPT and get something back, but like, we still have to pause and think about what we’re doing, right. Like it’s not the, the, yeah. It’s not, the shortcut for the thinking part of.

Mike Belsito [00:19:11] No, and in fact, I think this is the exciting part is hopefully the things that we can automate away allow us to think about it more. Allow us to focus specifically on judgment and taste and like, is this the right thing? And I feel like that’s the big sort of shift that’s happening now is like the product people that were always the builders at heart and wanted to get to that point, but they just sort of had to deal with that other stuff. They’re loving the situation that we’re in right now, release the promise of what it could become. If there are product people out there that were like relishing, which I don’t, in fairness, I don’t know too many people that would say they relished the stakeholder meetings internally, or they relish the passing of information from one group to the other group. But I think if somebody really found themselves, because it could be, it could have been very easy for a lot of people to find that 90% of what they were doing was that. And if that’s all you know, and that’s your you haven’t kind of pushed yourself, or aren’t willing now to push yourself to kind of like learn the next steps. You might be in trouble now in this new world kind of that we’re in, but the optimist in me is like, I think most people got into product not to push information around, it was like to create cool stuff that make an impact for our customers, right? So I think the people that are in it for those reasons, like this is now like Christmas every day for them, or at least again, that’s the promise of it.

Dan Sharp [00:20:38] I’m curious, you’ve been writing the book for a bit, in your research, anything that’s come up that’s either like surprised you or changed your perspective.

Mike Belsito [00:20:47] I think, again, one of the things that did surprise me is that there are certain people that I was interviewing that I expected them to go right into, when I’m like, hey, in this new world that we’re in, what do you feel like is changing for product people? And again, where they went wasn’t the technical aspects of it. And again maybe it’s because, again who the heck knows? Technically things are changing so fast. Things that- It took usually like a year to change. I feel like those are changing now in like a matter of weeks, um, sometimes days. So maybe that was part of it is like, everybody’s feeling like, well, gosh, I don’t know what’s going to happen in six months, technology wise, but it’s like, when I asked them, Hey, in this new world that we’re living in, like, what, what do you feel like is most important for product people when they really came down to it, it wasn’t that the tech side of things, it was more about, well hey, how can you make sure that you’re constantly practicing. Making better judgment, being more curious. And I think that was the thing too. Like I, there used to be a time where I would think about something like curiosity. And I would that it was something that it’s like, oh, that a person is innately curious or they’re not. You know, like Dan is a curious person, Sean’s a curious or he’s not a curious, but like I wasn’t thinking of it as a practice. And that’s where, like in some of the research, like people really encourage, like, not actually like, I feel like I’m curious, but also hear the things that I do to sort of like stretch that curiosity muscle or flex that curiosity, muscle. And that’s what I’m trying to capture in the book is like not just, that’s like if there’s a chapter about curiosity, it’s not like be more curious, you know? But it’s like, you these are the things that you can actually do to sort of stretch or flex, that muscle and become like, yes, you’ll become a more curious person, it’s because of the actions that you’re taking.

Dan Sharp [00:22:41] I mean, that reminds you, we were at a conference last year, and it was a similar discussion about creativity, right? We’re like, creativity, I think it was like, oh, you have a job, but like, it’s a skill. You can learn it, you can practice it. Yeah.

Sean Murray [00:22:52] Thank you so much for being with us today. Yeah. Our relationship actually started not at one of your conferences, but actually at our product and design conference. So this year, the ITX product and Design Conference is at the Riverside Convention Center. It’s June 24th and 25th. And you will be emceeing for the fifth year in a row.

Mike Belsito [00:23:09] That’s right.

Sean Murray [00:23:09] Why do we keep coming back?

Mike Belsito [00:23:11] That’s a great, you keep asking me. So like, step one is, I keep getting asked. Step two is, for me, and I mentioned this before, anytime I’m in the room full of hundreds of product people, that’s a special time for me. And I, especially, you know, in a different place, like a place that I don’t get to come to very often. Rochester’s not that far from Cleveland, but like, oftentimes my travels are taking me to like the Bay Area, or London, or New York City. And you know what, you get a certain perspective when you’re over in those areas, and I love visiting those areas. But I’ll tell you, when I talk to product people at home in Cleveland, and they’re watching the podcasts out there that are profiling the latest, greatest Bay Area product thinker, they’re watching that, and then they might even enjoy the episode, but they’re like, you know what? This doesn’t work where I’m at. This isn’t reality for me. OK, now there’s one product person and 20 AI agents at that company. That’s cool, but my company, which is bank that employs 50,000 people or an insurance agency that employs tens of thousands of people, we’re not there yet and we won’t be there for a couple of years. Those are the conversations I have more often in Cleveland. And I feel like it’s probably similar to places like Rochester too. It’s real companies. There’s real product people working at real companies that are facing real problems. And so for me, I love hearing about those real problems. Like I think it’s good to get perspective from all sorts of different product people that are out there. And you hear the challenges that exist here might be a little bit different, might be lot different than a place like in the Bay Area. And honestly, like I just learned so much. So it’s like when I’m talking to people that are, like people I’d met at the ITX product and design conference in the past. Like they’re people that now that I’m putting together like an early reader list, like for my book. Yeah, there might be some of these, like, influencers on that list too, but it’s some people I’ve met from the conference in the past who I want to read the book and like, give me your feedback, like tell me where I’m going wrong here, you know? And so I’d say that’s it. That’s like for me, I enjoy being here. They’re great. It’s always friendly people. But more than that, it’s like, these are people that I’ve always felt like I could learn a lot from.

Sean Murray [00:25:26] I like it. There’s our new tagline for the conference, right? Like rooted in reality, but forward-facing. Yeah. Love it. Right. Thank you so much for being here today. Shout out to Paul McAvinchey. I meant to call you out earlier. Right. But, uh, we’re really looking forward to having you with us in June and, uh, you know, good luck with the book. Uh, you’re actually here speaking at the ITX office tonight for a tech, for a Tech Rochester event. So you can’t leave.

Mike Belsito [00:25:50] No, I’m here and I’ll give a shout out to Paul as well, it was Paul and I both that started Product Collective together and he’s with me at Pendo too. So we’re both now continuing to be in the world that we love with product people and here in Rochester, night like tonight and coming up at the ITX Product and Design Conference in June, we’ll be doing the same thing. It’ll be a lot of fun.

Dan Sharp [00:26:10] Really is.